WAV or Apple Lossless Encoder?

Dtc - a few responses to your most recent post:

"I would like to understand just what extra information is in an ALAC file that degrades its sound. Any explanation or references to this?"

Steve will have to answer this. I was merely repeating what he told me.

If a given player playing an ALAC file and playing a WAVE file produce different sounds, it is a big leap to believe that the only cause of this could be the ripping process. It may well be how the player somehow handles the different formats.

Note that both Marco and I are independently hearing a difference in sound between two files of the same format (ALAC) that were generated differently. This cannot be how the player (itunes) handles the format. BTW - I am understanding that itunes does the conversion from ALAC to uncompressed, and sends the 16/44.1 stream to my Pacecar.

My background is scientific research and in computer science. So, when I hear that there are differences in 2 approaches I want to know why. And I tend to get picky about experimental design. In looking at the results that people are reporting I see lots of unaccounted for variables. The experiments need to be designed to eliminate those variables.

I am so with you on that. I too am in a science/engineering field.

My suggestions, although it will take time, is to
1) Compare the sound of ALAC files ripped with iTunes (using the error correction mode) and ALAC files that were ripped to WAVE by EAC and converted to ALAC by iTunes - both played with iTunes (or your favorate player).

This is exactly what I did that started my entry into this thread after hearing the difference. Now - I'd like to ask you to do the same thing! I know you've made bit/bit comparisons of the WAV's - but try doing this and listening and tell us what you think. To eliminate another variable - try the song Marco referenced above. Or, if you have an FTP site, I can send you both versions. Would you be willing?

Unfortunately, to do your second method I'd need my CD, which I accidentally left at Marco's the other night. It will take me a while to get it back. But please, let us know what you find out if you make comparison #1 above (as Marco noted, you must have a sufficiently resolving system).

Finally - personally, I would try to re-rip music as I listen to it, not as a big project. BUT - I don't yet know what will be the right ripping procedure to accomplish this. Part 2 of this exploration!!!

Look, I am a EE with over 30 yeard design experience. We can debate the theory and the science until the cows come home. The fact is there are differences here, and comparing .wav to .wav files does not explain it.

One person that did this experiment repeated it with a Transport rather than the Pace-Car reclocker and concluded that if the jitter is very high, you really can't tell the difference. It's when the jitter gets really low that the difference is obvious. The Pace-Car is only a FIFO, it does not change the data in any way.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Way to go guys, you scared the sh#t out of Conedison8. That'll teach him.

Way to go guys, you scared the sh#t out of Conedison8. That'll teach him.

LOL. I'd be curious to compare a lossless file ripped on EAC that was ripped that way (retains all of the tags / song info - I assume that is possible), to the same song ripped to lossless in iTunes. I'm sure that it's probably already been done ad nauseum - anyone?

As far as Conedison8's pissin' his pants, I'd reiterate that upstairs, on a far more resolving system with a Modwright Transporter on the front end I could clearly hear the difference. Downstairs, in my office system, which is very basic, with a MHDT Paradisea via USB, I would be very hard pressed to identify differences in the three files I was comparing. As I suggested from the very beginning of the thread, if you want to figure out which format to rip to then do these tests yourself, with some of your favorite cuts of music and sit down and compare them and see what difference, if any, you hear. The only drawback to doing this is that if your system changes dramatically towards the more resolving, your observations may change and you may end up wanting to re-rip your library. I'd agree with Peter's opinion that the difference isn't something that screams at you, though I found it immediately apparent albeit subtle.

For everyone who is concerned about my nerves and well-being, if this was the biggest concern that I had in life, it could be a problem.