Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires
amir_asr

You can still "love" said tube amp but don't go making an argument out of it.

It doesn't bother me one bit whatsoever that you don't like certain tube amps, that's not the issue. I have a couple of friends who don't either and it's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. Some people like chocolate ice cream while others like vanilla. BUT, when you purposely trash products by "misrepresenting" them which you obviously seem to enjoy doing, then yes, it causes arguments.

You have consistently misrepresented many companies and try to act nice and rational when in fact you are just patronizing others. All that rational demeanor is a load of nonsense. You can still be rational and condescending at the same time and that's exactly what you are. I flat out don't like you and I'm not gonna candy coat it. 

Look at this response from one of your members to understand what I'm saying. You don't care as long as you have your cult following.

Great review @Amir, I’m going to use this as reference to not buy valve gear…..ever!

Does that kind of response sound like you are educating others? I politely asked you if you could simply clarify my questions and you would not answer. You simply refuse to match gear properly. How do you intend to listen to a tube amplifier properly if you don't use proper speakers for them? Of course it's not that much power, because you used it with some inefficient Infinity speakers.  I had to find out myself from another source because you refused to answer.

Does that kind of response sound like you are educating others?

Sure.  The transistor is one of the most critical inventions there is.  This site would not exit, nor the Internet without it.  It drastically reduces power consumption, shrinks the sizes of components and provides incredible fidelity that no tube product ever produced.  As if to try to be hip by being contrarians, some audiophiles have clung to tubes, hypnotized by the glowing filaments, convincing themselves that they are hearing better fidelity. 

So here I come and show how much dirt the tube amp is throwing in the signal.  And that for this privilege, you pay boatload of money to boot.  Any rational person would say what you quoted.  It is like building a car today with a steam engine and claiming it goes faster than a Porsche but when the data comes out that it accelerates at 1/100 of the rate, expect praise to be poured over said steam engine car!

Granted, that example was that of a better designed tube amp:

 

This is how it performed:

 

Why in the heck should anyone buy a tube amp when even a good example has this kind of noise and distortion?  Again, do you not have any respect for the work of the artist and engineers and produced the content?  They didn't use this amp to produce the music, right?  Why do you want to serve their food in such a dirty dish?

You simply refuse to match gear properly.

Oh.  That is like saying this is a great car but you better weigh less than 100 pounds to drive it!  It is not my job to "match" gear when I can buy huge number of other amplifiers that don't need any matching. How would matching reduces its noise and distortion?  How do you know the impedance of the amp and the impedance of the speaker to know how to match them?  Answer: you do that with measurements.  But again, why, oh why?  

There is not one controlled listening test that shows any of these tube amps to sound better.  All of the fans and companies producing tube amps have not had the wherewithal to produce just a single, ears-only test, to show that they sound better. If it is so easy to tell they sound better, why don't you produce this simple test result?

I tell you why: because you won't find the answer you are looking for.  Tube amps at best have harmless distortion.  At worst and in many cases, have clear audible noise and distortion.  In the case of tube amplifiers, that is trivially shown as they run out of power and distortion like hell.  

You want to believe in fantasies and magic?  Do that. But don't tell me this picture of fidelity:

 

Or you could have this:

 

All of the above are with dead easy to drive resistive loads by the way.  And at just 5 watts.  These tube amps are pure noise and distortion generators.  They are an insult to decades of progress in engineering to resort to them for anything other than nostalgic look.

 

Amir was being honest with the measurement results he obtained. Science and its engineering applications are based on measurements.

 

OMG they gang up on Amir because he's being truthful... what’s wrong with these people acting like bunch of "cry babies"

@classicrockfan ,

Against my better judgement I will reply to this train-wreck of a thread.

"Amir was being honest with the measurement results he obtained. Science and its engineering applications are based on measurements."

I firmly believe this to be true. However, I also believe there are intangibles when it comes to audio and its reproduction. In other words, measurements don’t tell the whole story of how a certain piece of equipment sounds.

"OMG they gang up on Amir because he’s being truthful... what’s wrong with these people acting like bunch of "cry babies"."

Amir brings it upon himself. I find his responses to be childish insomuch that he portrays an attitude of self-righteousness and condescension towards anyone whose opinion differs than his.

My advice is to think and listen for yourself. I think you’ll hit a point in your audio journey where you realize that one guy doesn’t have all the answers. And if they tell you they do....probably time to move on.

ASR seems to me to be a place where hoards of people with cheap equipment are so desperate for validation that their $300 "insert piece of equipment here" is just as good as a $6000 "insert piece of equipment here" (that they’ve never heard for themselves, mind you), that they’ll resort to personal attacks. Amir leads the show over there and I find it rather appalling and ignorant. Not for me, thanks. If that's being a "cry-baby", well....I guess I've been called worse.