Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Of course reducing noise and distortion are desirable. I dont think anyone disputes this. Sometimes the other qualities that you get from components that measure poorer in these areas still sound more correct overall. 

Very few really talented solid state designers will dispute that they cant duplicate what tubes do well in their designs. Just as few designers of any amp type will dispute that their designs sound better with higher impedance speakers.

Amir measures things which is fine. But no one can adequately explain how a majority of people in this hobby gravitate, through experience, away from notions that much of what Amir says is true. In fact much of it is completely false.

He doesnt come across to me as a listener of any acumen. He completely missed the sublime aspects of this hobby. He speaks as if it were a mechanical undertaking and also listens in the same fashion.

 

@audition__audio 

I'm unclear on your points. You seem to begin by claiming that poor measurements might sound "more correct overall" which begs the question of what "more correct" means? I think you are smuggling in preference; what you like is somehow more correct than the preferences of others. I've less certitude beyond saying that accurate reproduction fidelity is mostly my preference.

What is in fact "completely false" about Amir's statements? Is it just that you claim, without evidence, that a majority of people disagree with accurate reproduction or flat frequency responses, etc.? That seems unlikely given the very high interest in ASR based on visit frequencies.

And, finally, no clear idea what sublimities you are fishing at in your final paragraph or why you consider his listening "mechanical." Is it because he uses different language to describe his listening outcomes or doesn't tarry sufficiently about some aspect of your preferences for listening adjectives?

im simply saying there are things that can’t be measured accurately with pink noise tone! 

Good because I don't use pink noise for any tests.

 I think most people with descent hearing hear close to the same thing.

Indeed, they do.  When it comes to preference for speakers for example, it doesn't matter where you are from, whether you are audiophile or not, whether you are old or young.  Strong similarity exists for neutral and uncolored sound when tested in controlled testing.

These four speakers were ranked the same way across multiple listener groups from trained listeners to reviewers and students.  Less trained listeners are much less picky though which goes against the claims of audiophiles that they are have extraordinary hearing ability.

Amir measures things which is fine. But no one can adequately explain how a majority of people in this hobby gravitate, through experience, away from notions that much of what Amir says is true.

Majority of people?  Where on earth did you get that from?  ASR is now nearly the largest audio site in the world.  The high-end audio market where people have these notions you talk about is tiny part of the overall market.  

But let's say you are right.  The reason is simple: audiophiles have no awareness of how their perception works.  Or how to conduct proper listening tests that truly test the thing they are after.  Given these two factors, they wind up concluding that "everything matters."  When in reality vast amount of it doesn't.

How do we know this?  When the rare opportunity comes to test one of you in controlled situation where all that is involved is the ear and nothing else.

A long time member of this forum who has a half a million dollar audio system and believes everything matters, volunteered for such a test.  This is my summary of it:

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Back in 2011 MikeL was so sure that he could tell his MIT Opus cable from others that he accepted a blind test challenge in his own home with his gear. The results were this: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...41184-observations-controlled-cable-test.html

"So our results with Mike as our listener were clear: for this particular methodology, Mike could not accurately identify a difference in the cables."

M ike was so sure of his ability hear differences in cables yet the moment all but the sound of cables was presented to him, he was unable to reliable tell his cable from another apart.

Mike posts this about the experience: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...184-observations-controlled-cable-test-2.html

"yes; i have, to some degree, changed my perspective on cable differences....but...my mind is still processing the results and what they mean for me. i hope that i can coherently relate the various thoughts that go thru my mind. as Chris mentioned; the controls were successful at keeping me from knowing which cable was which. for each test i felt confident about my choice (except #6...see below).
[...]
when i made my choice known for #8 i was confident that i was 100% for all 7. then my friend Ted said 'that's it.....test over'. we had discussed prior that any result 7 out of 10 or better or 15 out of 20 or better would mean a positive result and to continue. once we got to only 3 out of 7 it was clear that we were not going to get a positive result.

why did i fail?.....or put another way.....why did this test show no real difference? was i overconfident?

yes; regardless of the eventual answer i was not respectful enough of the challenge.

[...]

in my mind i am not confident that i will ever be able to hear reliable differences between the Monster and the Opus to pass a Blind test. OTOH i am also not sure i won't be able to do it."

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Sadly he didn't learn anything from the experiment and now he just avoids such tests or pays attention to what measurements, and audio science and engineering says.

All of you have the potential to have a revelation here.  Just conduct a test blind and repeat it a few times.  Grab your cable, fuse, or whatever you think is making a difference and test it blind that way.  I assure you that whatever you think you can hear, you won't.

Many people couldn't tell the difference between coke and Pepsi in a blind test, but there is definitely a difference in taste. I bet that at home in a more relaxed atmosphere more people could tell the difference.