Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

@ricevs 

Well, the arguments presented above don't resemble a fantasy and flat-Earthers are the ones holding fast to irrational beliefs when presented with evidence to the contrary, so I'm both amused and confused by your presentation. You are also directly contradicted by Amir's discussion of cable testing, above, but I do encourage you to continue to research, learn, and perhaps someday ABX prove some of your ideas!

I personally have no particular ego investment in audio equipment but do like trying to understand online communities and how beliefs (and fantasies) develop.

@nonoise I do try to be careful in my use of conditional language...epistemic humility again about ideas and people, regardless of your characterization.

I'd love to be shown an anomalous result where there is in fact more than "meets the eye, and scope," but just haven't seen any evidence for such things yet. The Technics anecdote is curious but needs facts, data, measurements--proof of any kind. The anomalous results, when they arrive, are the great point of cognitive reorganization. There's a great beauty in that sense of impermanence and the arrival at a new plateau of understanding.

Sorry to wax poetic, but there is a sensual numinous feeling to good science for me. Bring me the novelty, but make sure it is fully baked!

When you do not trust what you hear......trust yourself......this is very sad.  When you think you need to blind test yourself to believe what you just heard......again very sad.  When you taste a certain variety of apple do you need to test yourself blindly to know that its a Granny Smith?  I feel sorry for you "must do tests and and measurements to make certain that I am experiencing what I am experiencing" guys.  Do you go to the love measuring machine when you fall in love?  What a joke.  You either trust what you hear/experience or you don't.  Not much trust in those measurement guys.

Back in the 70s we borrowed 10 Supex cartridges from Dave Fletcher at Sumiko (high end audio was a big club back then....everyone knew everyone).  Now this is even before we knew that cables sounded different.  We mounted them all on universal headshells and marked each one with a number on a small piece of masking tape.  The three of us spent all day doing this test.  We ALL agreed with every test.  A few of them were not very good.....another batch was pretty good but there were 3 of them that stood out.....we spent a long time but finally figured out which one was the winner......we bought that one.  After doing something like that you know you can trust your ears.  Of course, this was all sighted.  But it was very, very clear.  The frequency graphs that came with each cartridge showed nothing of the differences we heard. 

Learn to trust youself.....trust that you can hear differences and they do not need to be proven or backed up by others.  You are your own source of truth......live it....feel it....listen to it...trust it.  It is REAL.

@knock1 

Not sure what you are getting at? Yes, we have theories explaining the existence of noise and distortion in audio reproduction. Those theories are used to develop engineered products that, in turn, reduce noise and distortion. That's how this science and engineering game works. Note that a "theory" in science is not just a speculation:

Scientific Theory

The critical language cloud includes ideas like "testable," "make predictions,"withstand rigorous scrutiny," etc.

@ricevs Cool, man! I'm just glad that all the engineers and scientists I know and have known use rigor, measurement, and scrutinize one another using mechanisms like peer review before reaching conclusions and are humble enough to admit when in error.

The known facts about cognitive and perceptual bias tell us to be a bit more careful about being "our own source of truth." Nothing sad about it! We are beautifully flawed.