Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

Well, it appears that more ASR minions have landed (Sinad Measurement guy must have called for help, called in the reinforcements to flood this site).

Well, as you boys can see (over and over), this guy measures a dac and throws you some sinad numbers, which forms the basis for his ranking system/purchase guide. He will tell you that’s all there is to it....some low IQ sinad (his path to glory).

But, there’s a lot more you could do with FPGA, etc. When you all dump 10k, 20k, etc on your dacs, there are a lot of tricks contained within such a dac. You can deploy algorithms to pull a bunch of spatial info, deploy hrtf filters, create some level of surround virtualization, etc.

When you hear some dacs, all of a sudden, you heard some depth and layering n all? almost sounds like spatial audio, surround effects at times, eh? That’s right, many of these effects can be attributed to what’s hidden away inside fpga, etc. The dac manufacturer isn’t gonna reveal all his in-house secrets to you, but, you can be rest assured that the above mentioned (or similar) is what’s being deployed.

To reiterate, this guy’s IQ is just not high enough to measure anything on the above mentioned for ya (he wouldn’t know about it)...Sinad is all there is w.r.t ASR minions. Hence, if you just look at his low IQ sinad charts and made your purchase decision, you could get fooled.

Good luck to y’all Audigons.

P.S. I can train a 12 yr old to operate my AP kit spit out the same charts. Don’t get fooled because you saw a fancy lookin chart that isn’t something you see everyday (in your regular line of work).

@deep_333 Sure, DSP can change the way things sound, but I’m not aware of any manufacturers who don’t make such features switchable and therefore hide away their secret sauce. Pretty much all DAC makers strive towards accurate reproduction first and DSP features are add-ons (even if their algorithms are proprietary for this add-ons).

Seems like an odd and unlikely claim but I’d be interested to learn about specific instances!

Well, the issue is....some of you guys are such "intense purists" in constant pursuit of "intense purity".... "avoid dsp like the plague" type of guys.

And yet, all these spatial qualities, surround virtualization type of effects are being delivered to you on your "purist dac" to some degree, as you go up in price...and it just dazzled ya! Yes, yes, just keep hallucinating that it is all because of the purity (the "power supply" kept getting better and better as you went up in price!!, whoop di doo).

No worries, you’ll receive your pure dac and continue to retain your sanity. Enjoy the spatial effects, huuugge deeep soundstage with all kinds of layering n and all. Just don’t worry about "how" it happened (All the purists could lose their "purity" sleep if they found out how).

We don't want a "FPGA gate" like the "MOFI gate" (i.e., the purest of pure analog pursuit and betrayal), do we now.....

Naive objectivists have created a monster in ASR.Techno fascists seem to run the place with a group of headkicker moderators ready to step in with their jackboots if anyone dares to express an opinion.

You can say whatever fantasy you believe.....However, I dare any of you earth flatters to go over to someones house that has a serious stereo and has a bunch of buddies over and they A/B various gear.

Why are you daring us?  Why don't you go and do that AB test -- only do it with your ears alone.  Shoot a video of it and then we have something to talk about.

They will all hear the differences in cables, DACs and whatever....while you are there. Will you admit to hearing any differences? You see, you will NEVER EVER let yourself be in this kind of situation.

You are dead wrong.  Before starting ASR, I co-founded whatsbestforum where I routinely defended subjectivists by accepting listening test challenges from objectivists and passing them.  Meanwhile, not one subjectivist around me would attempt to take the test let alone pass it. 

Those tests were passable because objective evidence showed that there were differences.  You are getting into areas where we are confident from multiple angles that such audible differences don't exist.  If you want to claim otherwise, per your own suggestion, go and do that testing, document it and let us see them. 

Note that we believe that you are perceiving those differences.  We know because when similarly situated in sighted evaluations, we too conclude there are differences that measurements don't show.  Difference between us is that we know the faults in this kind of testing.  And so routinely follow with blind tests that show us these problems.

Naive objectivists have created a monster in ASR.

While put in harsh tone, your underlying impression is correct in that ASR is far more than me, or measurements that I do. We have become the gathering place for many experts in these fields to have most substantive discussions of audio anywhere. The level of knowledge dwarfs what goes on elsewhere. Witness how I was able to address @mahgister papers and have a discussion with him while none of you could even follow those topics.

We have large number of industry participants, designers, reviewers, and serious hobbyist who read and participate in ASR on daily basis. Go and ask any question from any area of audio and you get deepest discussion of it anywhere. Research will be cited, engineering design analyzed, methods of evaluation proposed, etc. All in a professional setting devoid of much mudslinging and rude behavior.

This has caused a movement in the industry by shifting analysis of audio outside of fluff reviews and marketing materials into "prove it to me." Companies are responding by building better products.

Mind you, there is still a lot has to happen but the movement has started and it is not going to stop because folks put their fingers in their ears and refuse to learn.

@markwd ”It’s very incongruous and does not correspond with ordinary science and engineering principles, or with even everyday logic per se.”

There is nothing ordinary about science or about the electro-magnetic world. When one only depends on electrical measurements for their full conclusions, what is missed is the other half of electromagnetism - the magnetic world. Electricity does not travel through the cable - it travels through the magnetic field surrounding that cable. ‘Ordinary’ science has not yet understood how to accurately measure the nuance and time flux of magnetic fields in the way they affect sound from signal transfer. This is why conclusions made purely from electrical measurements are a half-science. There is so much we do not know yet. True science is about questions, not mere answers.

@markwd ’Do note that manufacturers’ specs can be false and also that a specific unit may be broken. Testing by a third party like ASR can help to ascertain the reasons for the differences, not always perfectly, but they would add additional support to these apparently tendentious ideas about these products.’

There Isn’t anyone here that doesn’t agree with that. The concern is that Amir, with his unbending stance that listening cannot complement measurements for the now, until we know more about the measurement of magnetic flux, hugely influences audiophiles to believe the same. That isn’t science, as proudly stated in the name of his site, it’s indoctrination, or brainwashing.

In friendship - kevin