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Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires
ricevs
1,543 posts
 

If you are on a budget, and or cynical and angry about the high end audio costs, or are very "scientifically" oriented then ASR can help you find gear and have very good sound. If you really want to appreciate the soul of music....the soul of life......then the equipment recommended there will not do the trick. There are many mansions in heaven. ASR is the lowest high end mansion. There are far more blissful and happy realms above. I recently moved my planar mid/tweeter forward relative to my woofs 3 mm.......when I hit play....I started to cry. It was so real and beautiful. You will get way more of the "soul" of the music with other gear. Yes, it costs more, but it does not have to cost a ton of money. You don’t need to have a $150K Wadax DAC to make you cry. I have a modified $400 SMSL DAC that makes me cry......but I am sure if I had a few thousand dollars to spend I could get a more expensive DAC and mod it and I would never stop crying and dancing.

This is the problem is ASR......because Amir claims that all DACs, and preamps and amps and cables all sound the same (when they measure a certain SINAD) then he is telling his minions that they have arrived at the highest level of fidelity.....all while spendng a moderate amount of money. Nice myth.....but completely untrue. He is like a primary school teacher teaching you basic math and then saying to you, that you have all the knowledge you need to make a rocket and fly to the moon. He is like a childrens softball coach saying that you can now go into the big leagues and hit a hardball out of the park. What a joke. Limited knowledge equals limited experience.

What is the fun of being an audiophile if you cannot constantly improve the sound of your stereo and get bigger and bigger goosebumps? Amir says all you need is a Topping stack, a pair of his approved book shelf speakers and generic cables and you are set for life. Then you just drop out of the audio game, because there is no where to go. You notice how angry the ASR people are? They lynched me and banned me. Not because of MY rude behaviour (which there was none). It was because I sold tweak "snake oil" things.....so I was the devil (a money grubbing scum bag). The reason they are so angry is that there is a lack of soul when you limit your experience. And they know their experience is limited.....but on an ego level....they identify with this limitation and fight for its existence. Very sad. It is so much more fun to share new ideas on how to improve your stereo. You learn from each other and you get more and more goosebumps.........or you can fight for your limitations. The ASR types go around in the forums and point fingers and say....."bad voodoo"....."bad voodoo". However, three fingers are pointing back and them.....it is all projection. They are the unhappy ones. Of course, there are people who are angry who listen and have better sounding gear. But at least they are moved to soul levels with their stereo once in a while.

However, if you stay at the bottom levels and never experience what real soul levels there are (this goes for life as well as audio) then you will be "content" in your ignorance. Ignorance is not Bliss.....Bliss is Bliss....and usually comes with great maturity......even though its a childs essence.

A Topping stack will never sound as good as a great turntable system.....maybe a cheap turntable system. There are levels and levels and levels.....it is infinite. If you want to spend very little and not look at the possibilities of things then ASR can work for you. If you want to KNOW what is possible and attain such sonic bliss then you must look elsewhere. Don’t settle for a Honda Civic (that the dealer told you was just as fast as a Corvette)........You can afford to spend a little more to get better sound. You are worth it. You are magnificient. Hondas are great. But it does not really go that fast. You want a soul ride? You want to really experience what the composer and artist intended? You want to really FEEL something beautiful and powerful and exciting? You can, you can, you can. But you must find it yourself....you must trust your experience to know what gives you goosebumps. If you follow any one persons advice to what gives you happiness then you are just their sheep.....Be a lion of knowledge....be bold and trust yourself. You can do it. It is a fun ride.....Enjoy.

markwd
98 posts
 

@ricevs I think your metaphor may have gone awry there towards the end since we can measure the differences in performance between the Civic and Corvette?

ricevs
1,543 posts
 

You see how your ego driven mind will just have to come in and say "something is wrong"? This is the nature of the mind......it is a MAKE WRONG MACHINE. You understood what I was saying......you get it....yet your mind still had to find something wrong and then comment on it. You did not comment on what was right with what I said.....just what you felt was wrong. Please be greateful.....life is a constant miracle and you can continually grow and experience more of the amazing love and joy that has always existed. Wow! We are so magficient!!!!! I love you.

Every single thought you think, word you speak, feeling you feel and action you take.....has a certain vibration....that keeps creating itself over and over again. This is how we create our reality.......by the quality of thoughts, words spoken, feelings felt and deeds done. What is the quality of life you seek? Create that quality with your thoughts, etc........Watch your thougths.....for they are at the beginning of creation. Think happy thoughts....bless others....send them blessings.....stop giving the finger and instead give your heart and soul.

markwd
98 posts
 

@ricevs Well, it's a collection of nice sentiments, sure, but I don't see any reason not to include ASR rankings and reviews in one's journey of music and music equipment enjoyment...just another data point! You indicate some at ASR are mean but, hey, the world is filled with many types. I just ignore them and focus on the value-add.

ricevs
1,543 posts
 

markwd,

Totally agree. ASR has its place.

There was a woman on Youtube describing her Near Death Experience. When she was out of her body, she experienced more love and joy than she had ever felt. After a while God told her that her time was not yet and she would have to go back into her body.......She pleaded with God, saying she was a good person and helped others, etc......which was true. Then God says to here.......did you Love them like I am loving you? She replies......How can I? I am not God!......He looks at her and says.....YOU CAN DO BETTER........and immediately she was back in her body. This is what life is about. We can do better. For we are made in the image and likeness of the almighty. Be kind. Everyone is your child. We are the children, we are the world.

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