Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

@markwd You hit the nail on the head.  I was evicted by Amir from ASR a couple years ago (I knew nothing about the site at the time but noticed it was very active).  I mentioned that I preferred a digital cable and of course, maybe a dozen acolytes tore me a new one for not adopting their "cables are all the same" and "fuses are all the same if they measure the same" mantra.  I noticed another post concerning an isolation platform for large amps and they did the same to him.  ASR has a place but so many vitriolic members that it's a big negative "vibe" (ironic).  Well, I'm glad to have Audiogon and WBF forums where I can trade information and learn. 

It was J.Gordon Holt in a about 40 year old Stereophile who imagined activated carbon filtering built into walls as bass traps.  I took his advice and did the same in my 2019 custom built listening room (see my profile for details about my room).  When Von Schweikert came to set up speakers as a friend, it took only 1.25 or 1.5 hours instead of his 5 hour blocked out time frame.  The room is so well designed/built that it is a breeze to set up (without resorting to DSP).  I finally had the great sound and dispersion that I never had after 20 years of stats and then 22 years of dynamic speakers (except those Signature IIIs in my living room).  

So many opinions on how Amir & his moderators treat posters who don’t fall in line with the forum.

Funny thing, I posted a thread here about my experience of testing some AQ Dragon power cords where I didn’t hear a difference.

It was misstated twice by the same poster that previously I had auditioned $80,000 worth of Transparent cables. I assume that was to make me look foolish or like a liar. Even when I corrected the poster about the value of Transparent Super cables he persisted & repeated the lie.

Same poster referred to my experience & discussion with the dealer who sent me the Dragon cables as hearsay and doubted that I actually had the Dragons to evaluate. IOW called me a liar again.

He then referred to my posts as bullshit.

Another referred to my posts as being a part of the Naysayer Church (multiple posts referring to this Church) that wants people to blindly follow science.

I was told I was boring, just send the cables back. I was mocked for inviting my neighbors to listen & give their opinion. Then it was agreed by many that the problem was that my speakers were too close to the wall behind them, apparently just inches away (they were 48" from the wall behind them). I was told the problem was that I have a tin ear (ignoring all of the other people who came by to compare cables & heard no difference, including one man who manufactured speaker/XLR/power cables & brought his by).

In the end a poster that lived nearby came over with his speaker/XLR/power cables and a power conditioner and we had a listening session. For each change in cable he couldn’t hear a difference. When they were all connected he felt there was a small difference but wasn’t interested in a blind listening test.

After the results of that session were described the thread died. This forum isn’t hugely welcoming to people with different opinions either. I haven’t been banned yet so I’ll give you that.

@dwcda the difference is you are still here, you didn't get you posting privileges taken away.

- His company is also posed as an integrator, which implies that he sells AV gear. I would wager that he sells Sound United products (Denon/Marantz), because he he’s been measuring the low sinad and granting happy panthers on Denon products. His minions go wild and feral when they hear the word "Denon".

Madrona doesn't "sell" anything.  We have no retail operation, nor online.  And no showroom.  D&M is a top AV brand and as such, have heavy requirements for demo gear, amount you sell per year, inventory, etc. before you can become a dealer.  For this reason, almost all of their dealers are big box stores.  Existing stores would also want their turf protected which makes it even harder to become such a dealer.

As a result, most AV integrators will source products through a distributor.  They mark it up so what you pay as your cost, will likely be higher than what a big box store puts them on sale!  Translation: you have no prayer of competing for business against major dealers.  For the handful of AV Receivers we install every year as part of much larger project, this is fine but if you are going to try to sell things, it is a losing proposition.

If you go one step down to Yamaha for example, you can get that line and indeed Madrona is a "dealer" for them.  After being asked repeatedly to test one of their AVRs, I bought one out of my pocket through Madrona.  See this review of Yamaha RX-V6A

If you are not familiar with "panther rating," the above means it is mediocre and not recommended.  That review starts this way:

"This is a review and detailed measurements of the Yamaha RX-V6A "8K" Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). They only announced two such 8K AVRs and this is the upper model. Our company (Madrona Digital) is a dealer for Yamaha so I was able to purchase this at a discount for testing. Retail cost is US $600."

Notice how the reader is put on full notice immediately on potential conflict of interest.  Needless to say, after that lackluster review, I got stuck with the unit.  No one was even interested in buying my discounted sample let alone more of them at normal price.

Back to D&M, I have repeatedly given poor ratings to their products on the Marantz side.  See this review of Marantz AV7705

$2,200 processor gets my "headless panther" indicating a broken design.  Why?  Because they took the Denon platform, screwed it up from usability and performance point of view, and sold it for more!

This went on and on until last year where they finally decided to give the proper option for the filter and improved the performance of the HDAM buffers based on my feedback to the company.  That then resulted in a great review:

Marantz AV10

 

So this is a great example of the impact ASR has had on the industry.  Even major companies like this are paying attention and using measurements to improve performance of their products.

To be clear, only one person has ever asked me to sell him an AV product.  That was a Yamaha and when I gave him the price, I think he decided to buy it elsewhere and that was that.  Did I tell you I hate the business of selling audio gear?  I thought I did.

Most problems arise when listeners make assertions in which no listening is involved. I applaud those that admit they dont hear a difference. Takes guts. In the end you listened and this is all that matters. 

FWIW, it takes alot to get banned on this forum. Which is as it should be.