Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

- His company is also posed as an integrator, which implies that he sells AV gear. I would wager that he sells Sound United products (Denon/Marantz), because he he’s been measuring the low sinad and granting happy panthers on Denon products. His minions go wild and feral when they hear the word "Denon".

Madrona doesn't "sell" anything.  We have no retail operation, nor online.  And no showroom.  D&M is a top AV brand and as such, have heavy requirements for demo gear, amount you sell per year, inventory, etc. before you can become a dealer.  For this reason, almost all of their dealers are big box stores.  Existing stores would also want their turf protected which makes it even harder to become such a dealer.

As a result, most AV integrators will source products through a distributor.  They mark it up so what you pay as your cost, will likely be higher than what a big box store puts them on sale!  Translation: you have no prayer of competing for business against major dealers.  For the handful of AV Receivers we install every year as part of much larger project, this is fine but if you are going to try to sell things, it is a losing proposition.

If you go one step down to Yamaha for example, you can get that line and indeed Madrona is a "dealer" for them.  After being asked repeatedly to test one of their AVRs, I bought one out of my pocket through Madrona.  See this review of Yamaha RX-V6A: 

If you are not familiar with "panther rating," the above means it is mediocre and not recommended.  That review starts this way:

"This is a review and detailed measurements of the Yamaha RX-V6A "8K" Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). They only announced two such 8K AVRs and this is the upper model. Our company (Madrona Digital) is a dealer for Yamaha so I was able to purchase this at a discount for testing. Retail cost is US $600."

Notice how the reader is put on full notice immediately on potential conflict of interest.  Needless to say, after that lackluster review, I got stuck with the unit.  No one was even interested in buying my discounted sample let alone more of them at normal price.

Back to D&M, I have repeatedly given poor ratings to their products on the Marantz side.  See this review of Marantz AV7705: 

$2,200 processor gets my "headless panther" indicating a broken design.  Why?  Because they took the Denon platform, screwed it up from usability and performance point of view, and sold it for more!

This went on and on until last year where they finally decided to give the proper option for the filter and improved the performance of the HDAM buffers based on my feedback to the company.  That then resulted in a great review:

Marantz AV10

 

So this is a great example of the impact ASR has had on the industry.  Even major companies like this are paying attention and using measurements to improve performance of their products.

To be clear, only one person has ever asked me to sell him an AV product.  That was a Yamaha and when I gave him the price, I think he decided to buy it elsewhere and that was that.  Did I tell you I hate the business of selling audio gear?  I thought I did.

Most problems arise when listeners make assertions in which no listening is involved. I applaud those that admit they dont hear a difference. Takes guts. In the end you listened and this is all that matters. 

FWIW, it takes alot to get banned on this forum. Which is as it should be. 

The main problem with ASR is Amir. If he were a congenial host who conceded that there are many ways to audio bliss which can include exotic and/or high end gear, he wouldn’t be demonized

You are wrong.  I own high-end gear.  I recommend high-end gear.  Here is an example:  Mola Mola Tambaqui USB DAC

 

Conclusions
The Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC shows again that just because a DAC is designed from ground up, it need not perform poorly. It is actually the opposite with it performing at the top of the class with respect to distortion and noise.

Since I am not the one paying for it for you to purchase it, it is not my issue to worry about the cost. As such, I am happy to recommend the Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC based on its measured performance and functionality.

Nearly $12,000 streamer/DAC is recommended.

What I don't recommend is high-end gear that takes massive steps backward in performance, attempting to please audiophiles who believe in myths.  Here is the direct competitor to above, the PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC:

 

This is its distoriton+noise relative to frequency (in blue):

 

This is the Mola Mola (now in red):

 

PS Audio is selling you a noise and distortion generator.  Mola Mola is selling you a state of the art DAC.  Both are custom solutions.  One designer (Bruno) knows what he is doing. The other, not.

This is what measurements do.  They bring clarity and cut through marketing claims and user random opinions.  When they speak, they speak.  Build me a $100,000 DAC that performs well and it too would get a recommendation from me if it looks gorgeous, performs great and has nice and easy functionality.

You don't have an answer for these facts so resort to personal remarks and blame game.

@markwd “The problem isn't that there are interesting experimental results, it's that they don't demonstrate that there is anything that can be done to audio equipment to implement better solutions to whatever gaps may be present.”

• Thank you for your reply markwd - but, like amir, you obsess over the equipment a little too much : ) - my discussion of the test was to underline the entire point of mahgister raising of it, which you again missed - it was to inform about how powerful our sense of hearing is, that we can and should reclaim that birthright instead of leaving it to handicapped measurements to do it for us. Why handicapped? Because measurements will always be limited by the Fourier uncertainty principle, while human ears aren’t. Why is that principle important? Because it limits the measurement accuracy of frequency simultaneously with time, the very foundations from which music flows. Are you following now?

 

@markwd “Now, you can suggest that somehow listening on the part of the designer is allowing them to choose between design pathways but this is just speculation. It may be true, as I noted to @mahgister, but we don't know and neither does the designer.”

• I do not suggest anything of this, markwd - it IS happening, this is how the best audio equipment designers in the world are designing their servers and DACs, while of course putting equal effort to improving power supplies, and reducing realism damaging distortion. They are simply not applying signal fidelity as much as high fidelity, to their process. Do please reread my earlier post on this : )

 

@markwd “So there is a certain faith built into all this speculation, just like god-of-the-gaps arguments in other online communities ("listening-in-the-gaps" arguments has a nice ring to it!). It's interesting but needs proof and a proper measurement methodology that shows a path forward for determining exactly how these phenomena impact equipment design and use.”

• No ‘faith’ whatsoever. Have you not read that article properly? It was a test that showed human hearing capable of bettering the limits set by the Fourier uncertainty principle - here is the link again - https://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html

 

@markwd “Since you are a bit of a student of ideas in philosophy of science, one key one in contemporary thinking on the topic is lifted from Wittgenstein that we must remain silent on things we have no knowledge of and we have no knowledge of this.” 

• I believe you took Wittgenstein quite out of context - he wasn’t discussing the lack of knowledge in his quote, but the clarity with which we should be using language. The correct quote in context here - “What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak thereof one must be silent.
• Ludwig Wittgenstein: Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

 

@markwd “Until we develop it sufficiently we do have an AP and spectral sweeps.”

Yes, we might use analysers to help with room set up, but no, in fact, if the measurement of equipment is all that will be done for decisions - it is more correctly stated that until we are able to determine how to accurately measure frequency simultaneously with time, we have our more accurate ears to help us on this difficult but amazing and rewarding journey. We just need to apply ourselves to each develop our listening abilities.

 

@markwd “I'll just add one footnote to my previous post: we might actually be able to address the specific issues of heterodyning and nonlinear cochlea interactions in audio by using DSP to simply mute tones that interact in those areas of the hearing range. This would be like addressing a room mode but within the ear itself. Of course, we would be robbing the signal of its fidelity in so doing.”

• you once again fall back on signal fidelity without fully understanding it matters less than high fidelity. And ‘equipment’ (in this case the tech of DSP) is again your default to address that human laziness inherent to putting effort to developing listening ability. Markwd, you have to grasp the fact there are no shortcuts in our hobby. Measurements will bring you signal fidelity, and that’s all you’ll ever have. Be happy then.

 

@markwd “Still, in order to do this we could use experiments that first demonstrate it will improve human hearing. There is a great deal of literature on methods for overcoming hearing loss; there may be something in there concerning speech that points towards something useful for audio equipment design.”

• With all due respect, I’m concerned there may be a disconnect with how you read, and comprehend with what you write - there is nothing wrong with the human hearing apparatus. Well into our seventies, while there may be a big drop in our hearing the upper registers, all our abilities to detect frequency/time nuance is still robust and functioning - the enjoyment of music continues with every fibre in our being. What needs to improve is the development of listening ability, not the apparatus we are born with. I hope you understand that distinction.

 

In friendship ; ) - kevin

@fleschler 

Thanks for your kind words, flescher, I can get long winded too, and I’m so happy you got something from my long post. And you’re so absolutely right about magnetic tape - it is actually one of the prime reasons I believe the magnetic side of electromagnetism holds secrets we haven’t plumbed just yet - something to do with the analogue continuity of magnetic flux that we all receive some benefit of in its transmission of audio signals, while it defeats the discrete nature of digital music….and all attempts to understand the discrete measurement of it, haha. I didnt put it in only because I wanted to draw more attention to how high fidelity began rather than evolved.

On a side note, your posts over the past four years were some of the many that helped me along this amazing wonderful journey I’m on - it’s medicine unlike any other. Thank you so much!

 

In friendship ; ) - kevin