Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

What is the fun of being an audiophile if you cannot constantly improve the sound of your stereo and get bigger and bigger goosebumps? 

You can do that all day long with better speakers, headphones, IEMs and room response.  These are are all the areas where variability is there.  In case of speakers, you do indeed need to spend more to get more in many cases.  Even spending $100K+ on speakers would not be out of line as long as the design is right.  Getting high dynamics there is going to cost you as does deep bass extension.

With respect to DACs, you can get a superb, transparent one for a few hundred dollars and be done.  Amplifiers can cost money as you want to get as much power as you can.  You also want them quiet or you would get hiss out of the tweeter.

Screwing around with cables, footers, etc. is all waste of money based on extensive objective and subjective testing that I have done.  If that makes you unhappy, then I say you are putting higher priority on screwing around with your hardware than listening and enjoying music.

 

Amir still here?!  Come on.....let's do what he does on his forum....let's ban him forever (like he did me and many others).....Give him a taste of his own medicine.  Not serious, he is perfectly fine being here as long as he is nice......unlike how he treats people ON HIS FORUM.  He is da rulla.  He gets what he wants.

Amir, why are you still here?  You are not making any new friends.  No one believes you about your basic point of view except those that already were predisposed to false science, followers of yours, angry cynics and the like.  You are NOT gaining any sense of credibility.  The more you post the more people come out of the woodwork and talk about your gestapo tactics, etc.

I am glad that Amir recommended an expensive DAC.  Of course, he thinks it sounds the same as his $900 Topping......which is why he never seriously listened to it.....and if he did he would say they sound the same.  Everyone, please read the reviews on the Topping and then on the Tambaqui Dacs.....completely different class of transparency.....except to Amir....he even thinks stock $400 Dacs are sonically the same as the Tambaqui.  He is missing so much musical pleasure.  He is missing the soul essence of music.......which is easier to feel when your stereo has REALLY low distortion (and I am not talking about numbers measured.....but ears heard)    

I think it is time for this thread to be closed......really getting boring.  Nothing more needs to be said. 

Amir, why are you still here?  

As I have explained, this thread is directly about ASR.  People like to discuss the very forum I have created so I am here to give first hand answers.  You have a choice of posting anywhere in this forum yet you are hear arguing with me.  What you want me to tell you?

I am glad that Amir recommended an expensive DAC.  Of course, he thinks it sounds the same as his $900 Topping......which is why he never seriously listened to it.....and if he did he would say they sound the same. 

It would.  It has to based on science of how our hearing works.  Same science predicts issues with PS Audio DSD DAC and that is what my listening tests indicated:

"Listening Tests
For subjective testing, I chose to use the recently reviewed and superb Monoprice Monolith THX 887 Balance Headphone Amplifier. This headphone amp has vanishingly low distortion and hence is completely transparent to DACs being tested. For the alternative DAC, I used my everyday Topping DX3 Pro 's line out RCA to Monolith. I then used the XLR input to connected the DirectStream DAC. Once there, I played a 1 kHz tone and used my Audio Precision analyzer to match levels using PS Audio's volume control. PS Audio claims perfection there ("bit perfect") so I figured they can't complain about that. 
 The final matching was 0.3 dB difference between the two.

For headphone I used DROP + MRSPEAKERS ETHER CX with its XLR connection to THX 887 amp.

I started the testing with my audiophile, audio-show, test tracks. You know, the very well recorded track with lucious detail and "black backgrounds." I immediately noticed lack of detail in PerfectWave DS DAC. It was as if someone just put a barrier between you and the source. Mind you, it was subtle but it was there. I repeated this a few times and while it was not always there with all music, I could spot it on some tracks.

Next I played some of my bass heaving tracks i use for headphone testing. Here, it was easy to notice that bass impact was softened. But also, highs were exaggerated due to higher distortion. Despite loss of high frequency hearing, I found that accentuation unpleasant. With tracks that had lisping issues with female vocals for example, the DS DAC made that a lot worse."

See?  I don't say all DACs sound the same.

"The main problem with ASR is Amir. If he were a congenial host who conceded that there are many ways to audio bliss which can include exotic and/or high end gear, he wouldn’t be demonized."
It certainly is. He is arrogant with little to be arrogant about. He is also rude and condescending and brooks no  counter arguments. His attitude promotes the rudeness exhibited by many, (not all I agree), of ASR members. I was ridiculed for asking about information about Dacs and asked if anyone had heard the Meitner range.
Posters on other sites have commented on how his tests are often flawed, yet he sets himself up as a Messiah.
Look at the number of people he has thrown off his site, yet he comes here and bleats. I have never met him and have no desire to do so.