Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

@kevn Well, we certainly do seem to talk past each other. Your responses demonstrate that you are not quite internalizing the problem that I put forward. Sure, we have this great hearing capability and some experimental results that suggest some curious little edge phenomena but we have no way of actually telling whether it is useful to us in the context of music reproduction and listening.

We can't design systems that exploit it or, if we do, no one has demonstrated that they have done so. For instance, let's say that human hearing can detect aspects of music that are not distinguishable based on the spectrum and that the designer figures out a way to use that to improve the system, the way to establish that is through a consistently reliable ABX test that shows this remarkable new achievement while the signal measurements are otherwise unchanged. Or, the other way to approach the problem is to figure out how to measure the ability down to the level of granularity of the human ear, perhaps using approaches that are not applying FFTs for analysis. Then, voila!, we have a new measurement regime to use for designing equipment, etc. Measurements prevail again!

The other possibility as I discussed is to figure out a theory and model for how it improves on our ability to process music and then incorporate those findings into the design phase. Hence my suggestion that there may already be some insights in the hearing-loss literature...I'm not sure how you read my comments on that as somehow suggesting I wanted to improve age-related hearing loss! To be clear: "Still, in order to do this we could use experiments that first demonstrate it will improve human hearing." means that we need experimental results that show that my proposed method of DSP-ing to counteract heterodyning/nonlinear cochlear phenomena would actually improve on the listening experience, improve our hearing, rather than artificially scramble our natural interpretation of the sonic landscape, reduce our capabilities or just be neutral.

WRT the Wittgenstein quote, I was mentioning that it has been internalized as a way of expressing the epistemic humility of contemporary science crossed with the requirement for positive evidence of novel claims, but thanks for the clarifying context!

@dwcda 

Im sorry you had a bad experience with audiogon, dwcda, and I’m glad you stayed on - that’s the nice thing about this site - it really takes a huge lot to get booted : ) - I appreciate that kind of tolerance. And there is a huge variety of members here, who come from all kinds of audiophile persuasions and beliefs - it makes for a terrific pot to hear it all; for all views to be heard; relationships between those viewpoints to be made; and clearer decisions to come to. Thrive in it. Please do not allow dissenting or even rude views to upset you - it’s a varied and wonderful place to find your own learning from. We all learn and grow from diversity and adversity, never through the agreement and laziness that homogeneity breeds.

In friendship - kevin

@markwd WRT the Wittgenstein quote, I was mentioning that it has been internalized as a way of expressing the epistemic humility of contemporary science crossed with the requirement for positive evidence of novel claims, but thanks for the clarifying context!

You’re welcome, markwd! More later ; )

In friendship - kevin

So many opinions on how Amir & his moderators treat posters who don’t fall in line with the forum.

Funny thing, I posted a thread here about my experience of testing some AQ Dragon power cords where I didn’t hear a difference...

...I was told I was boring, just send the cables back. I was mocked for inviting my neighbors to listen & give their opinion. Then it was agreed by many that the problem was that my speakers were too close to the wall behind them, apparently just inches away (they were 48" from the wall behind them). I was told the problem was that I have a tin ear (ignoring all of the other people who came by to compare cables & heard no difference, including one man who manufactured speaker/XLR/power cables & brought his by).

@dwcda - Most people within that thread had actually encouraged your observations, agreeing that if you don't hear a difference you should send the cables back and not waste money.  Your initial response was taken as sarcasm by one individual and it seemed to have kicked off an argument between you two, which you're attributing to represent all of Audiogon.  Some unsolicited advice I can offer is to not take it personally and not to dwell on the matter.  It's the internet.  Your time and focus are better spent elsewhere.

Personally, I can say I've spend the equivalent of a new well-equipped automobile on Audiogon and AM classifieds and appreciate the personal experiences shared on forums like Audiogon that have led to those purchases.  I've met great people during these exchanges and it still amazes me when I wire a large sum and get the thing I ordered in the exact condition described on an Audiogon listing.  I am much younger than most typical audiophiles, but my first observation was/is that they're an extremely opinionated, but well-intentioned bunch.  I don't get the same impression of the folks at ASR.  They remind me of some of the bitter critical theorists I've had the displeasure of meeting whilst in academia.

To sum up, I interpreted that thread much differently than you are describing it and would encourage you to move on.

Every DAC that measures the same will sound different.....this is what those that listen know.  Every amp that measures the same will sound different.....this is what those that listen know.  Every wire that measures the same will sound different....this is what those that listen know.  

Those that do not listen?  How can they have an opinion on what they did not experience?  This is crazy.  To suppose a distortion measurement on some machines actually signifies in total how something sounds is literally insane.  NO LISTENING = NO KNOWLEDGE.......No serious listening tests to prove your measurement theories = BS......plain and simple.

YOU CANNOT KNOW WHAT SOMETHING SOUNDS LIKE WITHOUT LISTENING.  You cannot know what something looks like without looking.  You cannot know what something tastes like without tasting......etc. to infinity.  Our own senses are the most scientific instruments ever existed.  We are meant to experience directly.....not live through machines.  Machines are soul less.  That is why a Amir approved cheap Topping Dac sounds soul....less.....because it was designed for MEASUREMENTS ONLY.  The designers who listen....design for good measurements and GREAT SOUND......Topping does not have great sound.  This is what all the reviews describe......Most say they are great for the money.....some say even other Dacs for the same money are better.  No one who has heard more expensive Dacs thinks the Topping DACs are as good......no one....except for Amir and his Minions.