Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Kevin and Markwd  I know I don't have your knowledge of electronics.  I do know how to record something as simple as a piano quartet and make it sound at least as good (usually better) than issued recordings (I've been doing this for over 40 years).  I start with a great recording venue, then a simple two mike digital recorder located within 15 feet from the performers, recorded even as low as 16/44 resolution, adding no reverb only music tracks and voila, a mastertape quality recording (it certainly helps when one has all professional touring performers).  

Most listeners of acoustic music do not get to experience live performances in great venues.  It helps train one's ear.   I've heard over 400 opera performances and either performed or heard 1000s of choral and orchestral performances.  When I evaluate audio equipment, I require multiple types and recordings.  There are an infinite number of variables beginning at the recording chain and then the final mastered product.  Just using my simple recordings give me a reference for comparison.  @deep_333 is incorrect in his analysis of the Topping D70s concerning an inability to reproduce dense, complex music which means either his (assumption of gender) recording(s) or his ancillary equipment are at fault (or he has a defective Topping unit).  VERY IMPORTANT-apparently about 1/3 of these units come with inverted polarity.  There is a built-in correction on the main menu.  Huge difference.  It may only effect XLR output though.  I didn't test single ended output.

@markwd

It’s not the differences in viewpoint at stake here, but the way the argument is engaged - I see all these words games with amir, and you in fact, when faced with quite honest communication. I will not debate what your intentions are, but the comment on the study was the first relevant post you made the entire time, and I suspect you know that. You are clearly not thick, so it appears trollish to keep inserting obtuse points in your every reply just to confound and confuse the discussion.

Let’s see where this takes us. In the meantime, do look up the definitions of high fidelity so that it’s not confused with signal fidelity.

 

In friendship - kevin

Dude (facepalm), the fact that you sat around with headphones comparing that Schiit with something else....no, you have a lot to learn.

The owner's experience was with Stax headphone and that is what I replicated.

For starters, I could show you a comparison on a couple of dacs, a good one and a crappy one i have in storage with one of my rigs (NOT HEADPHONES) and it is flipping night and day obvious how one one of them produces a flatass soundfield and the other one doesn’t.

Then go ahead and do that.  Be sure to match levels, perform the test blind, and repeat at least 10 times and see if you get at least 9 right.  With that kind of differentiation, it should be a walk in the park for you.

I’ll pass a blind comparison 25/25 times or 50/50 times or how many ever flipping times (done it before) in my room (not in your garage) on the test tracks I recorded/will provide.

Do you also know how to shoot a video of the event? Because that is what we need.

I conclude that you have no field experience and it is a waste of time to try and say anything to you Carry on, try and dazzle the Agon senior citizens some more with a few more of your simpleton charts.

Let's see you dazzle us with some facts rather than claims.  When can we expect the above comparison video?

 

 

@fleschler

trust me fleschler, you know more about these matters than I do - everything sounding profound I posted earlier came from my reading of the article mahgister linked, with what I know of uncertainty principles, and my curiosity over why I often hear things with small changes in my system that cannot be measured. Confirmation bias is just a lazy inconclusive answer, and appears the only aspect of empiricism that pure rationalists acknowledge.

I still stand by where high fidelity began and what it means. So your post makes all the sense in the world.


When put into context, we are not hearing the single piece of equipment measured. We only hear it in the context of the entire signal chain - what comes out of the speaker and into your ears is the only true gauge of how well that bit of equipment performs….in context. By all means, measure that amp for linear distortion. But don’t pretend to measure it for the non linearities human ears might be hearing, where all the nuance music actually happens. It’s about system context, not about the amp or the this or that that are isolated things within an entire system. There is no easy way to get a full understanding of what something does in a system, until we hear it from the speakers with our non-linear ears.

In friendship - kevin