I guess they should be good for that price!
JTR RS1s (18” sealed subs) vs JL Audio E112s, (JBL 4367)
I got a pair of JTR RS1s (18” sealed subs) a few weeks ago to replace a pair of JL Audio E112s and I have been very impressed with the JTRs. I am using a pair of JBL 4367 speakers and a K235 active crossover from Sublime Audio with a 60hz high/low pass (24db slope). Updated pictures are in my profile.
The Sound for 2ch:
Overall, the JTRs are more detailed and textured than the JLs. They also blend better with the JBL 4367s much better than my JL E112s (also actively crossed over at 60hz). The JLs always had a bit of an over damped sound to me. That feeling of bass being from a sub and not a passive speaker, but they always sounded good regardless of this small issue. It was not until I got the JBLs with their amazing mid bass texture that I felt the JLs were lacking detail.
The JTR RS1 has a very light and nimble sound. More so than any sub I have heard. The driver even sounds/feels light when tapping on it with a light tone. When tapping on the JL driver there is a very dead low thump. I feel the 4367s outclass the JL for bass details, but I feel the JTR outclasses the 4367 for details and eclipses the JL. When actively crossed over the RS1s and JBL 4367 sound as if they are cut from the “same cloth” which is very surprising to me. To say I am impressed with their musicality would be an understatement and I never expected the end result to be so seamless.
I was not sure if I would notice the lower bass extension of the JTRs over the JLs for music but it is very noticeable and luckily adjustable on the JTRs with the Low Frequency knob on the back. There is about 8dB of adjustment between 20hz-30hz. At first the low bass sounded odd to me as I was not used to hearing it. I used the adjustment to cut the frequency. But as I adjusted, I turned it back to flat. I think this is intend for boundary reinforcement adjustments but is a very interesting tool for 2ch. After a week of tuning by ear I broke out the mic and measured the room and bass through the crossover was totally flat. Room modes of course still in tack with a peak at 90db-110db in my room but otherwise flat. I believe this 90-110db peak is caused by my low ceilings interaction with the 4367s as it was also there on my Revel 228be.
All said and done changing out good subs for better subs is not as big of a change as switching speakers but has made a bigger difference than changing electronics.
The Sound for Movies:
I am 99% music, but my room is setup as a home theater (all black, 120” screen, etc) and I bypass my home theater through my two channel system. The left and right RCA inputs in the subs can be used for both movies and music (the two channel is through balanced cables). All speakers are high-passed at 60hz and the LEF comes in at 80hz.
Anyway, I don’t have too much to say other than the power and low reach of these subs is crazy. My room is 26’X30”X8’ and I leave the back doors open to other rooms which extends the listing space to 42’. At reference volume (85dB speech, 105dB peaks) I worried about damaging the house and I am not kidding. I have no way to measure bass under 20hz with my current meters but there are scenes where I don’t “hear” the bass but it is felt and the doors flap.
Other items:
The build is very much like pro speakers with good but no thrills build. They are covered in spatter paint like a guitar amp. No issue for me in my black room but could be an issue for some.
The built in low pass crossover only goes down to 60hz so these IMO will mandate a high-pass on the mains at minimum for two channel. It does not go low enough to rolling in under a set of towers without a high-pass of some kind. You could add an external lower pass only I guess.
There is also no “phase” adjustment but there is a knob marked as “delay” in MS. I honestly don’t know how these compare as I did not need them to integrate using an active crossover.
They add no hum to my system which the JL’s did with their poor quality amps.
As a side note I am pleased with the Sublime K235 too and I will make another post about it. It is a good alternative analogue option. The K235 allows me to home theater bypass through it by using balanced for my 2ch preamp and RCA for my home theater as both inputs are active.
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Yeah I guess they are expensive but they seemed like a good buy in their market. The E112 in gloss is $2700 now and a fair enough price comparison. The trade off is the JTRs are ugly beasts lol other subs I looked at: JBL SUB18, $3800 without amps (crown amps with the needed PEQs are $$$) and total package was out of my price range Rythmik F18, $1800, probably a better buy for music, maybe not as good for movies. At the end of the day I just wanted to try the JTR. Perlisten R18 $4995, less performance but adds internal room correction I would not use as I have external solutions if needed. I did not look at them as JL will never get another penny from me (I had five failed E112 over 10 years) but the fathom F113v2 is $6000 now! That is a lot of money for an old design with questionable reliability.
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@james633 wrote:
I’m not at all surprised by your findings re: the JL Audio vs. your recently acquired JTR subs. The 4367’s have a dynamic and tuneful bass all around, and importantly they also cover the "power region" and further up to about ~700Hz, if memory serves me correct, which is a vital area (i.e.: 100-450Hz) and having a good deal of cone area here. With this kind of 15" woofer it provides for a fuller and more natural presentation compared to smaller and lower efficiency woofer/mids (that are often low- and high-passed in this region, if it’s a 3-way or more design), and this easily exposes the chosen subs solution to augment down low if too skimpy and low efficiency a variant. I imagine a pair of JBL SUB18’s would only expand on the qualities that you have found with the JTR’s, except into the infrasonics, as this is a case of efficiency gained at the cost of extension; the SUB18’s wouldn’t impress the way the JTR’s do below 20Hz with movies, but from ~20Hz on up the SUB18’s would likely be the (even more) ideal match with the 4367’s. It’s a compromise and what to go with here. Myself I’d rather go for absolute coherency (and efficiency) and miss out on infrasonics, but when you have 25Hz flat delivered effortlessly even at bonkers SPL’s it’s quite another experience than what small cube subs do at the same frequencies. As I'm sure you know by now, the bass of the former is much more convincingly felt and perceived by comparison. Where I’ve found the 4367’s to shift character tonally is in their lowest octave around the port tune where they become warmer and less defined, and this is likely the reason for your finding the JTR’s to better them here when the 4367’s are high-passed at 60Hz. I’d argue you could wring out even more potential here with a high-pass at 80Hz or a bit higher, in addition to intricate delay settings and room correction down the line. The subs that needs finger pointing for their price isn’t as much JTR and to some degree the SUB18’s as it is the JL Audio’s and other "hifi" subs mentioned by you. Paying that much dough for the JL’s with amp failure all too frequent is simply laughable. For the same reason I would generally avoid subs with built-in plate amps and instead opt for quality outboard amps and DSP’s with more elaborate settings. This also opens the door for more all-out DIY sub options and would save you money. |
Phusis, Seem like good insight on your comments above. I also set up the subs a few different ways before settling on the K235 crossover. #1 I used my surround processor (Marantz) to crossover, time align the subs with my mains. I tried a number of higher crossover points (60-110hz etc) and still liked 60-70hz the best. The integration was good but with the processor on I felt I was missing something in sound quality. Hard to put my finger on exactly what it was. The system as a whole was just a touch less dynamic and maybe the sound stage was smaller. Could be just placebo on my part. With the processor in pure direct it does sound a bit better to me but the crossover are not active in this mode. #2. I also tried a simple highpass filters from Harrison labs. This was a 12db slope at 70hz (I had to flip the leads on my speakers) and then used the subs internal low pass. This measured very flat across the frequent range, maybe even more stable than the 24db slopes but I felt like a bit of impact as missing where the drivers over lapped. I also found the volume of the sub ultra critical with this setup. I might add room correction on the source at some point. I have not been real impressed with audyssey and almost always end up with manual adjustments. For 2ch at the moment I am not using correction and just moved everything around to where it measured/sounded the best…. Those two correlate by the way… |
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