Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

It is so funny that you quote the midfi reviewers.......Steven Stone, Kalman....secrets of home theater.....etc.  These guys only listen to 1% of what is out there...........Try looking around at reviews done by people who are not paid to rave about midfi stuff and have access to other more expensive gear.  

I thought you said the consensus was universal?  I show you reviews from top two magazines covering high-end audio and now you backtrack this way?  All of a sudden "listening" is not good enough?  

Yes, there are paid snob "reviewers" on these rags which wouldn't know audio science if the book hit them on the back of the head.  They have not reviewed any Topping gear which would invalidate your claim yet again.

Go on.....do a search....everything I said is what they all say.....

You are asking me to do your homework?  Your case is already busted.  Well-known reviewers from top magazines completely disputed your claims.  There are no alternative reviews to back anything you claimed about Topping.

 

 

I trust me.....the me that listens.....I trust you....the you who listens.....

That is a clear misstatement if there ever was one. I just posted three well-known reviewers who heavily praised the product you said every reviewer hates. They listened, did they not?

Is listening only good if it arrives at the same preconceived notions you have? All other listening is false?

You need to put aside your prejudices about audio. That is the first step in seeing the truth. Otherwise, your brain will tell you what you want to hear. The above reviewers did that.  It is your turn.

I listen to these DACs for hours and hours. There is absolutely, positively no sign of any of the things you claim about their sound. They show the beauty or lack thereof of the music itself.

When someone crashes into my lane of flow and tells lies then I let them know they are on the wrong track. 

You are currently crashing into my lane.  This is a thread about ASR.  You are posting fallacies and mistruths to put down the work I do and who I am.  When I answer with evidence to the contrary, you write a word salad instead of taking a step back, being the student that you say we should all be, and learn from that. Plowing ahead goes against the very advice you are dispensing!

Listen to me: the world of audio has been transformed in the last few years.  In every category there has been great advancements.  As has method of evaluation of said equipment.  Over 2 million people visit ASR every month.  They do so because they are logical, and see the progress we are making across the board.  You don't want to hear this?  Then please don't say everyone should be a student.  You are not setting any example here.

 

I never said any reviewer hated a Topping. Generally, AS I STATED BEFORE they think it is very good and one of the best in its price class......that is it....As soon as you go above its price class......it fails. You really need to take a class in searching.....you seem to only find the old reviews that mirror your point of view. The guy at Soundnews used to love the Topping DAC.....now he is climbing the ladder. He thinks the Laiv DAC is the king under $5K but there are other DACs that do some things better (for more money).....but way better than a Topping. The guy at iiWi feels exactly the same way. This guy is super intelligent and his reviews are clear as a bell......this guy can hear......of course, he listens. Here is a review of the latest Topping compared to others in its price range.....If you search his Youtube website you will find that he also thinks the new Laiv DAC is really out there. These guys are climbing the money ladder and as they do.....they get better sound that leaves the lower high end (Topping DACs, etc.) in the dust. And of course, they are not testing the super high priced DACs that are another level better still. These two guys and others are just people who love stereo.....they are not part of some big company that makes money on advertising......and has to be NICE to all companies so they will keep advertising. These guys are true enthusiasts....they love stereo and love music. They listen and share. They can hear immediately the differences between equipment. They tell the truth.

Please start listening. You might learn something. Then you can help more people....not just the ones that think like you do now. Get some education....and then share the learned info.....spread the glory.....tell the truth. Praise be all life!