Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Please show us the hundreds of double blind tests done over a long time with hundreds of subjects that prove this....please...please....please. 

That is like you claiming aliens landing in your backyard every night and when I say that can't be true, you want testimonials from "hundreds" of people to prove they can't see them!

Instead of asking for hundreds of tests, you should do one test to prove you can hear the difference in a proper way where only your ears are involved.  Here is an example of ASR member doing a blind test of DACs :

"I am sharing my experience with my first ABX testing. Last Friday me, together with a friend performed a double blind test on this systems:

1) Chord Dave + Upscaller from Chord2Go+2U - headphone output
2) Topping D90 + A90 from a laptop
3) Chord Mojo headphone output from Iphone.
4) Apple lightning 3.5mm adapter, output from Iphone.

[...]

Result.. We could not tell the difference reliably between the systems. Which is.. proving either that we are both deaf or audio fools. We are repeating the test this Friday, I will post update if I can still type though my tears. Silly enough I can 100% reliably say which one is better when I see what system is connected."

Who was the member here that said Topping sounds terrible?  

For a fraction of time it takes to keep posting here, you could transform your knowledge of audio fidelity by conducting one controlled blind test.  Many have and enjoyed the benefits.  

I get that living in the Matrix can be nice. But ultimately it is not real...

 

It is really joyful to discover another hidden gem of tweaking that makes your stereo come alive. 

It would be if it is real.  If it is imagined difference, it will disappear like a fart in the wind, leaving you with emptier pocket and thicker fog of audio subjectivity.

I suggest you learn about Equalization.  In most cases it costs nothing.  Results will be transformative.  And you can tweak it for months if you wanted to.

@ricevs I notice that the all-knowing, the magnificent @amir_asr  didn't address your question.  What a surprise.

 Please show us the hundreds of double blind tests done over a long time with hundreds of subjects that prove this....please...please....please.

Forgot to address the folklore around "long term" testing being better.  Read my digest of AES paper,  Ten Years of ABX Testing, by David Clark

Two groups of audiophiles were selected.  One that subscribes to your beliefs, and one that didn't:

'Two groups of audiophiles were used as subjects. Lawrence Greenhill's Long Island based, The Audiophile Society (TAS) provided the high-end oriented "golden ears." David Clark's Southeastern Michigan Woofer and Tweeter Marching Society (SMWTMS) provided the "engineers."'

They were randomly given one of two boxes, one that did nothing and one that added 2.5% distortion.  Testing was done both with quick switching in ABX versus long term evaluation using "take home" version of the same.

This was the outcome:

"The results were that the Long Island group [Audiophile/Take Home Group] was unable to identify the distortion in either of their tests. SMWTMS's listeners also failed the "take home" test scoring 11 correct out of 18 which fails to be significant at the 5% confidence level. However, using the A/B/X test, the SMWTMS not only proved audibility of the distortion within 45 minutes, but they went on to correctly identify a lower amount. The A/B/X test was proven to be more sensitive than long-term listening for this task."

In other words, "long term" testing substantially reduces your ability to hear impairments, not improve it as subjectivists wrongly claim.  This is backed by how our hearing works.  Short term memory that lasts just a few seconds, captures hugely more data about what you are hearing than long term memory.  

Long term listening also causes adaptation which means you get used to flaws and no longer perceive them as much (or at all).

@ricevs I notice that the all-knowing, the magnificent @amir_asr  didn't address your question.  What a surprise.

Flat-earther demands to have testimonials from hundreds of people that earth is not flat to believe.  You are going to amuse him by gathering such data?  Or do you provide proof points that earth is not flat and let him decide to learn or not?