Discuss The Viv Lab Rigid Arm

Sorry again, this was my first post to Richard about that I deleted:

@richardkrebs : " AS is set by the user at a constant magnitude.."

Normally the tonearms designers design the AS mechanism to be not constant in magnitude but going from less to more as the cartridge moves inside and yes is only in one direction and away to be perfect, nothing is in the analog audio world where everything is full of trade-offs and each one of us have several trade-offs to choose in between, it’s way personal.

The issue is to stay nearer/truer to the recording. Now, I never seen specific measures on the tracking distortion levels of the skating against the tracking distortion levels of the off-set angle in pivot tonearms.

At least by measures we all know at each single groove the level tracking distortion through the Löfgreen alignments against nothing similar with the sckating issue.

I use what for me is the second best option to stay nearer/truer to the recording using pivot off-set angle tonearm trying to have some equilibrium with objectivity and at the same time subjectivity.

I already said to lewm ( he said I’m wrong about ) that knowing him through years of his posts that he will continues with arguments about because he has no objective answer/measured and proved whay he likes " something " as his VIV that has higher tracking distortions due that has zero off-set angle been a pivoted design. This is my take with him even that he is in total disagreement with me.

Today I’m totally satisfied under objective/subjective equilibrium with my choose of that second best alternative to achieve my target.

Other audiophiles have different targets and that’s all. At the end what overall plays a main role on each one of us is that can stay satisfied. I’m.

R.

" to negate the skating force .... "

In my case I don’t negate its existence and concecuences. I know that the that force makes a " presure " against the cantilever and the cantilever suspension what I never seen in slow motion ( as what I linked from youtube here. ) that the skating force really makes that the whole cantilever spin in to what holds the cantilever. One thing is to presure it and the other one makes to spin around. We have to remember that's not the only force down there and how ,it with the other developed ones. ( Remember cartridge compliance. Way important in this subject. )

R

@richardkrebs : " How much stylus misalignment and hence distortion, stylus drag causes, "

In any kind of tonearm/cartridge always exist the stylus friction distortion during playback.

At microscopic levels the stylus tip even has several small " jumps " due to that friction that’s is different along all the grooved LP surface depending the recording velocities in different surface positions. Here losted information that can’t pick-up and that’s part of the LP analog imperfections.

That theoretical misalignment you mentioned is different for each LP track sides and we can’t use it as a reference.

There are so many individual characteristics and parameters inside what we are discussing that for me the best I can do is to go with facts/measures that can gives me the best certainty ( that in any way is perfect but in theory helps to reach my targets ) and is what I did and do. Each one " imagination " and knowledge levels could take this dialogue to an endless finish line.

R.

For anybody who would like to investigate Tonearm Geometry a little further or a lot further? , as a means to learn about this subject.

The Following Link will supply info relevant to this subject.

 https://galibierdesign.com/modeling-setup-geometry/ 

Just to note that Tom uses the term zenith and the term headshell offset angle as if they were synonymous. For me, and in all my comments above, the term Zenith is used to refer only to the angle of the mounting of the stylus tip in the cantilever in the horizontal plane and has nothing to do with headshell offset. Certainly head shell offset angle and zenith, as I use the term, are interrelated, but the difference in the definition is also important if you want to understand some of the points that I and dave slagle were trying to make. You can optimize the headshell offset angle for a particular geometry, but all is for naught, if the zenith angle of the stylus tip is not 90°, or such that the two contact patches of the stylus tip are perpendicular to the longitudinal axis of the cantilever.
 

The accuracy of Zenith is a difficult subject as numerous Cartridge users have Cantilever / Styli's in used that are a Pre-Assembled Part, provided as a Part from a supply chain to Cartridge producers.

The supply chain seeming conform to a particular level of QA, where a tolerance is allowed for in relation to the perpendicular setting of the Styli in the Cantilever.

It is only Threads such as this that informs Cart' owners, that there is the very strong possibility the Styli on a owned Cart' is from the offset off being put into service, one that has been compromised, or alternatively one that is not optimised for the Geometric alignment.

How many are willing to go to the additional measures to attempt to improve on this alignment, when known about ?  

How many are convinced the time needed to be spent to improve on the alignment, will produce an end sound that audibly shows a discernable difference of betterment to the end sound. 

What level of tolerances need to be in place between mechanical interfaces for the TT > Tonearm > Tonearm Headshell Connections, to exploit the condition of a correct / near correct Zenith Alignment being achieved.

I personally, I know the value of having Critical Mechanical Interfaces addressed to the tightest of tolerances between above three items, where two of the Tools in use, also have critical interfaces that are the lowest coefficients of friction.

It is these interfaces being optimised, in conjunction with Critical Geometry Alignment for a Cartridge, that really enables a Cart' to pop and express the Sweet Spot is met.

It is these interfaces being optimised, in conjunction with Critical Geometry Alignment for a Cartridge, that really enables a Cart' to reveal a change has occurred and the pop / expression of the Sweet-Spot being met, has changed to the point the real attraction once experienced has diminished.

I would be willing to take the 'Punt' on the notion, many many TT's in use, are used with Cart's that have a design intent to perform at a extremely high level. Where these Cart's are used on supporting ancillaries that are not mechanically optimised and are set up as a Geometrical Alignment that has not been given the attention to create a condition that is accurate as can be achieved.

In all cases, a TT>TA>Cart' are more than capable of producing an end sound that the end listener really enjoys. Begging the question exactly what is to be attained as a result of all the extra learning, disciplines put into practice and time spent.

Referencing an experience encountered yesterday, where I was a member of a Group familiar with a particular TT>TA >Cart' that has been set up using AnalogMagik Software. I made the comment that I had detected a slight change to the impression the end sound was making, where it had lost a little of its pop/sweet spot, it was the first time ever, I felt CD had got close to Parity as the impression being made. Certain Group members including the TT owner felt my comment was with merit.

The TT owner has already arranged for the AnalogMagik Software to be used on the TT once more, to learn more about the suspected loss of optimisation.

My own take on it, is that the loss of pop/sweet spot, has been no different a impact on the end sound, to the impression made during a before / after degauss comparison, or the impression certain Interconnect Cables can create as a result of comparing them, some sound they are less impressive, whilst another is the one selected as the go to, or withheld for a longer period of assessment.

If the AnalogMagik does show a Geometric Alignment is called for and the pop / sweet-spot is reinvigorated returning to a previously achieved condition. Even though this condition will be attractive to have, some might say very attractive to have. The real value is that to have such a condition being in place, is a great method to be used as a indicator for when the set up has crept from being optimised.

Personally I don't feel that the suggestion there was a creep away from the pop / sweet-spot having impeded the end sound in a way it was unattractive, the presentation of Tracks played was immensely enjoyed. In context the day was solely about meeting / enjoying friends company with a wonderful lunch served alfresco. The entertainment was available through Banter and the experiencing of  New Design Prototypes of Equipment used with both Digital and Analogue Sources, New Speakers available in the UK, some familiar Tracks and a Selection of New Tracks  

Certain individuals would be struggling with the idea, I was to make such a comment about enjoying a Vinyl replay that showed the tools used, had seemingly crept from a previous optimised set up. For some it would quite likely be interpreted as I am not an Audiophile for accepting anything but perfection when listening to a replay of recorded music. HOW MISERABLE  IS THAT. life is way too short for such a pattern of thought to manifest.