There Is Nothing Like the Real Thing - Our State of the Art


This is a long expose’.  My apologies in advance.  Perhaps you will find it enjoyable or thought provoking.  Perhaps you will find me in need of therapy.  

 

I am lucky to live in the NYC suburbs that provide multifarious venues for all genres of music, dance, and theater within the inner city and beyond.  There are the large venues (Carnegie Hall, Koch Theater, Metropolitan) but many smaller venues where ensembles perform.   This weekend I attended a Fever Candlelight Concert of seasonal music at the St. Mark’s Episodical Church in Mount Kisco NY performed by the Highline String Quartet sitting about 25 feet from the performers in a warm acoustic environment.  Much enjoyable. Vivaldi L’inverno evoked a tear.  However, every time I come home from a live performance, I reflect on the state of the art of musical recording and playback, with feelings that as far as technology has advanced in the past 10 years, we are far off from the real thing.  I have spent much time with $1mm systems at dealers and have curated a system within my means that focuses on timbre, dynamics, and image density, at least to my ears.   But after listening to the real thing, I have the following observations:  

 

1.  Organic nature of reproduced music cannot approach the sweetness, liquidity, and  palpability of the real thing.  The real thing is detailed but never with harsh artifacts that I still hear even in $1mm systems.  Massed orchestral  strings is the best example of where the state of the art is getting better, but still far off from the sweetness and liquidity of the real thing. 

2.  Imaging and staging of reproduced music cannot approach the real thing.  I find systems homogenizes the sound field and some separate the sound field images in excess compared to the real thing.  When in a live venue, there images are distinct but the secondary harmonics from the instruments and the reflected sounds from the venue mix and diffuse the images in a manner that recorded and reproduced music cannot capture.  

3.  The dynamics of recorded and reproduced music have a different quality than the real thing.  Dynamics is where the state of the art has much improved.  Macro and microdynamics of systems I like are well reproduced.  The difference I hear is that the leading edge of the real thing is powerfully evident but never harsh.   It’s forceful and relaxed at the same time.  

4.  Many systems today produce vivid detail but in a manner different than the real thing. The way the bow, strings, and sounding board/body of the instrument develops and ripples out into the venue in an integrated manner is getting closer, but not yet there.  This, combined with my comments on imaging/staging produce detailed sound that progresses from a point source outward in three dimensions.  As an analogy, the detailed sound wave images progress into the venue like the visual image of a fireworks exploding in the sky.  Recorded music playback is getting closer, but it’s not the real thing.  

 

I believe the recording technology is most at fault.  This belief stems from the fact that some recording labels consistently come closer to the real thing.  For example, certain offerings from Reference Recordings, 2L, Linn, Blue Note,  and Stockfish produce timbre, staging/imaging, and dynamics closer to the real thing.  I do not understand recording engineering to understand why.  

 

What are your observations on the state of the art compared to the real thing?   For those technical competent, any explanation why we are not closer?

jsalerno277

I like live performances....BUT:

The ticket prices have become such I've become very picky as to Who & Where; 'who' is beginning to relate as to how old the headliner is, 'where' in regard to venues' that suck from the get go.  Been to enough of those that no seat location can overcome any amount of PA placement to be tolerable...

Us, as to the fans' response to the performance.  The 'dirty white noise' of cheering drives me to either wearing noise canceling headphones with/without ear plugs to be able to enjoy the performance vs. the response to it.  Some years back, one of which made my ears go 'pop'....and haven't been the same since...

I like 'loud'....but the performance, not the crowd.
At home, I can control the former; the latter, no....

There were a batch of small venues in the area that got destroyed by Helene along the riversides...small, low budget, funky but fun to support as they were beginning to draw more 'name' acts....

Gone.  What's left is showing the drift into big $'s to draw acts I've no interest in.

When I can stream or download at home with no crowd and little damage to our 'entertainment budget', the choice becomes obvious and influences what goes on locally....

...and the Orange Peel has always sucked....and their new venue in town shows the drift towards high $ tix....

I am with @asvjerry, part of what is driving cost for more mainstream or popular acts is the lack of revenue due to streaming and people not buying physical media. 

Setting that aside I have always preferred seeing performances in smaller venues and finding new talent to enjoy in smaller venues. 

Just my 2 bit's 

@g2the2nd We are on the same page regarding soundstaging of acoustic, in amplified live performances.   Recorded and reproduced music is getting closer, but it cannot capture the  “presentation is part of the whole flow of the music as it washes over you rather … a point on the soundstage”.   See my previous comments on staging, secondary harmonics, and hall ambience effects and their diffusion of images that creat the effect you describe and record labels coming closer than others in engineering that captures this.  

@jsalerno277 ...Precisely, +10.... Ones' space and equipment can only strive to recreate the IRL experience; you can't expect on a practical level the wattage involved and the speakers flown at stage sides....not unless you're located outside of city limits with acreage about you.....not to mention 440vac mains... ;)

One experience of interest at a show in North Houston, the venue having an 8' ish tall CMU wall at the back of the lawn area....

Taking a moment to get a handle on some refreshments, I backed up to that wall.  What seemed to be a dip in the mix disappeared, likely due to cancellations and 'infill' of the effected frequencies....

I chalked it up to the audience 'soaking up' said fq's.... 🤷‍♂️😏

Another + on live vs. studio is the performers 'riffing' with each other and/or the extended plays of a fav bit.  It's always a kick to experience a group giving the crowd a treat, even if the roadies have to OT a tad...   👍😎❤

@fleschler, I currently play violin in a small orchestra in a church.  Vocal soloists are on a small stage near me.  It is thrilling to hear the soloists and my fellow orchestra players at a close distance.  There are no ambient acoustical effects to smear their tone quality and detail.  But the chorus is placed beyond the last row of orchestra.  They are far away.  With the curved ceiling projecting them, the chorus is smeared worse than any low-fi audio system.  

Similar problems were evident at a concert including the Prelude #1 of Wagner's Lohengrin.  I sat in the audience in the 1st row.  This piece has 8 (eight) divided violin parts.  The first 2 rows of the string section were gorgeous with detail.  But further back, the winds, brass and percussion were badly smeared.  The concertgoer for large works has an untenable situation.  Sit in the 1st row center, get excellent  detail for the players in the front of the stage, but bad smearing for players further back, a schizophrenic situation.  Sit further back in the hall, get more uniform balance, but with uniformly muddy detail from all musicians.