@Hilde45
"I honestly don’t understand why ASR is like Voldemort to some folks here"
Because as soon as you say well designed Dacs can and do sound different, (and they do), you get abused and banned from the site.
The Audio Science Review (ASR) approach to reviewing wines.
Imagine doing a wine review as follows - samples of wines are assessed by a reviewer who measures multiple variables including light transmission, specific gravity, residual sugar, salinity, boiling point etc. These tests are repeated while playing test tones through the samples at different frequencies.
The results are compiled and the winner selected based on those measurements and the reviewer concludes that the other wines can't possibly be as good based on their measured results.
At no point does the reviewer assess the bouquet of the wine nor taste it. He relies on the science of measured results and not the decidedly unscientific subjective experience of smell and taste.
That is the ASR approach to audio - drinking Kool Aid, not wine.
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"Another ASR hating thread. One need not say that listening does not matter in order to see the value in measurements. Are there ASR folks who think that only measurements matter? Sure. But that does not mean that the measurements done cannot be helpful at all. (I mean, I’m not a fanatic about my weight on a scale, but it helps to know when I’ve gained 10 pounds.) I honestly don’t understand why ASR is like Voldemort to some folks here."
What you said immediately clicked the bulb in me. IMO, the error of ASR resonates a lot with the error of your analogy. About gaining 10 lbs. You could be gaining 10 lbs in water weight, Or 10 lbs in muscle. Or 10 lbs in fat, or any combination of these things. You can look quite different depending on how you gained your weight. You could weigh 210 lbs and be visibly/noticeably thinner than when you were 200. How is this possible? Well you could’ve gained extra muscle mass, lost fat in the process, and because muscle weights A LOT more than fat, you will look slimmer even though you are heavier. Kudos to you for making a perfect analogy to weight gain on a scale vs what ASR does. |
@prof Your argument relies solely on this simple equation Good measurements = good sound. Great measurements = great sound. Bad measurement = Bad sound. Different wording but it all implies the same thing. That if something measures good, it must sound good. Which is completely untrue and many can attest to this, Both consumers and designers. I have seen respectable designers come out and say they purposely use a worse measurement component because it sounded better than the better measured one. If measurement was a good indication on the sound quality. ASR should only measure products and not do any listening. The Topping D90SE was (is?) the best measured DAC ever, and how does it sound? Honestly not very good. Going back to the measurements. There are products that measure just god awful and they sound great. It doesn't take much to realize there's something amiss in the way ASR do their measurements. |
Thanks for sharing your invaluable knowledge. A quick word and disagreement on Amir. I don't think Amir means well. I've seen him spoken out so many times. His demeaner is "my way is the right way". Never a good trait for any scientist. What you said about SINAD reminds me of the TV industry these days. It's all about the nits and how bright the TV can get. Completely forgotten the many other important aspects that make a TV good.
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I think a better analogy would be to measure the bottle and it’s ability to deliver a “neutral” end product. One that doesn’t change the flavor of the contents. Though in the audio context, we would have to agree on what is a “neutral” vessel/ measurement. And we don’t know what the “original content” sounds like to begin with. Measurements are still a good baseline though. |
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