Ortofon carts are too hot for my phono preamp?


When I need hardware advice, I always come to Audiogon for the true experts.  Thanks in advance and happy Easter!

So after much trial and error, I THINK I have deduced that my Ortofon 2M Bronze and 2M Black cartridges are too hot for my Avid Pulsus phono preamp.  Some softer recordings are fine, but I think I am hearing some distortion with loud transients and even sometimes on relatively loud vocals.

I have a Pro-ject tube phono preamp I swap in and I don’ t hear that distortion. I never hear that distortion with other sources. 

Given my investment in 3 Ortofon 2M carts (1 Bronze, 1 Black, 1 Black SE) and the Pulsus, is there anything I can do to step down that signal from the carts without doing any damage to the sound?  

Any other thoughts?

(BTW the 2 turntables I am using are a Rega P3/24 and an older Rotel.  Meridian preamp has variable gain settings on inputs and I can hear the distortion at any setting.)

jji666

This review at HFN says the Avid has an overload margin at MM inputs of 46mV. 
https://avidhifi.com/storage/uploads/cms/pdf/85/6345755481a21/2012%20HIFI%20NEWS%20PULSUS.pdf

It’s not obvious to me that the phono stage per se is responsible for the “problem”, if it even is a problem.46mV is 10X the cartridge output at a stylus velocity of 5cm/sec at 1kHz. Decent headroom at least. Further, HFN auditioned it with a Shure V15, which I believe also has nominally a 5mV output. Viridian made a good point about capacitance. Check phono cable capacitance. Then check the recommended capacitance for the cartridge and the input capacitance of the stage. Input capacitance adds to cable capacitance.

@jji666 I can vouch for the cable from turntable to phono stage make a big difference. My Music Hall mm5-3 came with its own, directional, RCA cables. They’re the best I own, and, I think, play a major role in the sound quality of the vinyl on my system. My phono stage is rather modest, but I’m not getting any distortion of which I’m aware. Good luck sorting your situation. 

It’s not obvious to me that the phono stage per se is responsible for the “problem”, if it even is a problem.

It's not obvious to me either, other than by process of elimination it is the combo of those carts with that phono pre that yields distortion.  I have a few integrated amps with phono stages in them...I will see if I can reproduce the distortion through anything else. 

The above article also says that the headroom isn't as indicated in the specs.  And those carts have been measured at hotter than 5mV albeit as above there is some question about that.  

What I do know is that specific combination produces distortion. The Avid is really good at digging out details from some records, and with the shibata on the 2M Black and Black SE I get some great detail, again from some recordings.  Those that are at higher volume are the issue. 

 I can vouch for the cable from turntable to phono stage make a big difference.

Interesting. But neither of my TTs has removable cables...aren't we talking surgery to replace those? 

Seems I followed up my own post on the overload phenomenon, yet somehow it fails to appear here. Probably my fault for not clicking the green button.  Anyway, I did some further reading on the phono overload phenomenon.  Seems it is a complex subject, because cartridge voltage output rises with frequency.  The standard spec is for a velocity of 5cm/sec at 1kHz, as most know.  The input of the Pulsus is said by HFN to be overloaded at a threshold of 46mV with a 4.52mV reference (meaning for a cartridge output of 4.52mV). Elsewhere I read that the acceptable spec is that the overload margin of a good phono stage ought to be 20db above the reference input voltage.  In this case, HFN measured 19.6db for the Pulsus, with reference to 4.52mV input, another way of saying the 46mV upper limit.  With the Ortofon 2M output at 5mV, that would slightly reduce the overload margin, but by a probably insignificant amount.

dynacolum, you wrote, "The Avid, at 48dB gain is apparently too sensitive to overloading by your not abnormally high output MM cartridges".  But the phono gain is not by itself a measure of the overload margin.  That depends heavily on the topology of the input stage.  Also, tube MM phonos tend to have a higher overload margin than solid state MM phonos.  And 5mV is not an abnormally high output for MM cartridges.  In fact, that value is often taken as standard for an MM cartridge.