2. digital
  3. 1324014254

Sonos surprise

Hey guys. I just wanted to share an experience that I had, which really surprised me. On a whim, I picked up a Sonos Connect (ZP90). I wanted to try something easier. I quickly got tired of dealing with a dedicated music server and the Apple TV and everything associated with it.

Anyway, I got the Sonos unit home, connected it to my NAD T163 Pre/Pro via glass optical and did some A/B comparisons with the Apple TV rig and they sound EXACTLY the same. At this point it was a toss up as to whether I was going to keep the Sonos or return it. I played around with it last night and most of today, all the while assuming that the DAC in the NAD would be superior to that of the DAC built into the Sonos.

Well, being bored, I decided to try out the internal DAC in the Sonos, so I grabbed an IC and went to work. What do you know? It sounded a bit better. My little 685s that I have sitting in shelves actually sounded more full.

So...I got to wondering what would happen if I just pulled the NAD all together and connected the Sonos directly to the amp (HK PA5800) and switched the output to variable so that I could use the Sonos to control the volume.

What a surprise I got. The sound stage got BIG and WIDE. I was listening to the rig for a good half an hour before I realized that my sub wasn't even working.

In any case, I just wanted to share the experience. For me, it turns out that less is more. The NAD was definitely doing a job on the signal going through it.

I've found the Sonos to be a very nice compromise. To say that it is easy to use would be an understatement. I have it reading my music off of a USB drive that I have connected to my NetGear router. I just plugged the Sonus into the router and it read everything the way it should have. When I want to add music to my library, I just use a laptop with iTunes and I have my USB drive set as my iTunes directory. I rip a CD and it goes straight to the USB drive. The Sonos re-indexes the music once a day, so I don't even have to worry about it.

I also have to say that the Sonos is a very well thought out product, especially the software. Now, listening to music is as simple as pulling out my iPhone, iPod or iPad and hitting play.

The one big drawback to the Sonos is that it is only capable of playing 16 bit 48khz files, tops. Anything more and it just won't play it at all. For me, this is fine, since I get most of my music from ripping CDs and very little of what I like is available via HD downloads, most of it being standard 16/44.

Now I'm wondering if going with an out board DAC and getting my Sonos modded might be worthwhile. I'm really liking the idea of having nothing to deal with to listen to some good sounding music. Right now, my system consists of the Sonos, an amp and a pair of speakers.
tonyangel
tonyangel OP
309 posts
 
I have the ATV 2 and it has no analog outs. Strictly either HDMI or Toslink. I'm actually finding the Sonos to be more convenient than the ATV for adding music in my setup. With the NAS (sort of) setup, I just rip from a laptop that has the NAS as a target and it goes straight there. I have the Sonos reindex and that's it.

I gotta admit that the Sonos is turning out to be a lot of fun. Just today, I had a bunch to do around the house. I just set it to shuffle all of the songs in my library and let it go. It was really handy being able to skip songs and adjust the volume from my iPod without having to worry about line of sight or a commplicated rf setup.

I am, however, starting to notice some negatives though. When I turn it up, I am noticing an edge on the top end. I'm really hoping that the new DAC will take care of that.

On another note, I started thinking. How on earth can I use the Sonos as a Pre when my DAC gets here. I mean, how can you attenuate a digital signal without affecting the quality of the signal? I'm almost starting to think that I might have opened a can of worms with this Sonos rig. I really want to be able to continue to control the volume with the Sonos, but would also really like to retain sound quality. Oh well, I'll have to put some more thought into it. I'm still seriously considering going with a passive Pre, like the Axiom.

The reason is that one thing I noticed when I was running the NAD as a Pre, using the digital out on the Sonus, was that if I had nothing playing but turned the volume on the NAD all the way up, I got noise. Like a hiss/hum. I don't get this when I'm running the Sonus directly into the amp. All I get is dead silence.

Like I said, more thought. What I'm mostly worried about is that I read something about the method of attenuating the digital signal and over driving the DAC with too much signal and then getting signal degradation when you turn it down too far.

I really need to find a new interest/hobby. My head is starting to hurt.
kbarkamian
647 posts
 
"The reason is that one thing I noticed when I was running the NAD as a Pre, using the digital out on the Sonus, was that if I had nothing playing but turned the volume on the NAD all the way up, I got noise. Like a hiss/hum. I don't get this when I'm running the Sonus directly into the amp. All I get is dead silence."

This is the noise floor of the preamp. Every product has a noise floor; some are just louder than others.

Out of curiousity, did you hear this hiss/hum with no music playing at a volume position that you normal listen at? If it's not audible at the level you normally hear at and a bit higher, it's kind of nitpicking, isn't it? If it doesn't occur at any level you'd listen at, what's the difference?

Please don't take my post as derogatory. Not the intent whatsoever.
tonyangel OP
309 posts
 
The fact that the hiss/hum was audible at all just bugs me; and no, I couldn't hear it while listening to music.

Oddly enough, I got my Emotiva XDA-1 in today. Although I don't have the proper cabling to hook everything up right yet, I did some piece meal patch work with some cables just to get it up and running.

First to address the hiss/hum, I first hooked everything up to the XDA-1 and then ran that to the NAD Pre/Pro (not using the DAC built into the NAD), no hiss/hum. Maybe it had something to do with the internal DAC on the NAD.

Anyway, I went ahead and used the NAD as the Pre/Pro with the XDA-1's volume set on 80. It was very nice with both CD's and through the Sonos. More detail, wider sound stage, the whole nine yards. I think this says a lot with regard to the quality of the internal DAC on the Sonos and that of the NAD. The XDA-1 is an improvement over both of them.

Now, where I really saw the improvement was when I pulled the NAD from the system all together and just used the XDA-1 as a Pre. Considering what I'm used to (mid-fi at best), I was stunned. I wish I had done this a long time ago.

Anyway, back to the point; the Sonos is very nice and CONVENIENT. I think I'm going to keep it, especially after the improvements that I got with the new DAC.

The NAD T163 is going up on ebay. I don't need it any more. I'm going to start experimenting with using the volume control on the Sonos with the DAC and see how that sounds.
tonyangel OP
309 posts
 
For those that might be interested, I just wanted to update this, since I've been running the Sonos for a while now.

First of all, the Sonos is a killer unit. It sounds more than good enough to enjoy my music, as long as I'm listening to the music and not the equipment; although I think it sounds pretty darned good. It's also idiot proof and not buggy at all. Everything is very well thought out, from the packaging to the software. I just wish it did HD.

I got rid of the T163 and am now running a C162 as a preamp. The major reason for this is that a tech a Emotiva confirmed what I thought I was hearing. To me, it sounded like it just sounded better the louder I played it. I was told by the tech that the volume control of the XDA-1 is a digital control and it chops bits to control the volume. The best quality is obtained when the volume is on full.

I have tried a couple of other lower priced DACs (V-Dac II and Cambridge DacMagic) and decided to stick with the Emotiva. I think it sounds better.

All in all, I'm a pretty happy camper with the Sonos rig.
douglas_schroeder
3,281 posts
 
Sonos is plenty good for the High End, or else I would not use it in my listening room.

You may wish to have it modded and I'm sure there is substantial improvement to it - something I may pursue in time. However, you can get very good results simply by taking the dig. coaxial signal out of it into the outboard DAC, as you have done.

The quality of the DAC is of monumental importance. You are wise to seek a 32 bit DAC, however there is a large variation on how these DACs sound, so it would be advantageous to hear two or three in your room if so inclined.

The digital cable is critical; there are different levels of sound quality between digital cables, and one has to try two or three to find an optimum result.

Some RCA interconnects perform better as digital cables than other competitors' digital cables! So, if you have alternatives lying around, try them. Typically, use of an RCA interconnect will warm up/plump the low end and attenuate the treble, causing the system to sound more mellow, but there will be some loss of treble detail and some loss of extension/depth of the soundstage. Ideally you will find a coax digital cable which will give you all the performance you want in every respect, but this is a good compromise solution to tame a hot high end.

You need to make a decision on whether to continue to run a DAC with a pre/vol. control or not. The DACs I have used with vol. control have been compromised in terms of absolute sound quality. I prefer use of a dedicated DAC with set output and a separate preamp. You might find a DAC with a vol. control which is not significantly influenced by the compromise of having both functions together, but it might cost you about $5K to find one which doesn't compromise.

I have compared Sonos/DAC combos to iTunes and JRiver via USB file playback and it holds its own. With the advent of the 32 bit processing DACs the issue of missing out on Hi Rez files is reduced imo. I don't care for much of the music currently on Hi Rez downloads, but I'm getting better sound quality from CD playback via a 32 bit DAC than what imo 24 bit players can provide. So, there's not much to complain about. :)
More to discover