The Emperor DAC has no Clothes


I currently use the Rega DAC in a system comprised of Merlin TSM-MXr speakers on Skylan stands. Amp is the Manley Stingray II tube amp. Oppo CD player and Mac Mini feeds the Rega DAC with Pure Music and Cardas cables. My friends system is currently using an ARC integrated with Vanderteen 5a's. He's had the W4S Dac II, EE Minimax Plus, ARC 8 DAC and is currently trying out another borrowed Rega because I won't loan him mine again!

In recent weeks we've tried these DACs in both systems, tweaked and tried various setups. I posted in another thread that the Rega won out against the Minimax Plus and the W4S 2 and that he was partial to the little Centrance.

So here's the thing. The Rega and the ARC sound pretty much the same. So does the W4S 2 and the Minimax. We STRUGGLE to hear the tiny differences between these units! And by "struggle" I mean we use top level recordings and LISTEN LIKE MANIACS again and again. 99% of the time we could not pick these units apart. 100% of the we find that we could be happy with ANY of them! Of course there was a preference for the Rega and the ARC, but boy was it slight! The smallest tweak could shift the balance. A different set of cables, speakers or higher ceiling could easily effect things.

Between the two of us we have something like 65 years of experience with audio. I find it absolutely hilarious when someone posts that a DAC sounds "much" better than another DAC. How is it that we can't hear the same thing, nor can ANY of our friends? We certainly hear a HUGE difference in speakers and amps and very audible ones with cables. But GOOD stand-alone DACs appear to be doing a very good job. MOST people simply list the one or two they've heard in stores as their favorites. If you're looking for a "safe bet" in a DAC you can go with ANY of the models I mentioned above or some of the other fine units out there. Unless someone has your exact system, in the same room and your precise tastes, try not to worry overmuch about DAC A blowing away DAC B.

This was most apparent in trying out the EE Minimax Plus. He tried various tubes and it always sounded best in SS mode! And in that mode it sounded quite like all of the others and about as good as the much less expensive Centrance. So the point of this is to put your efforts and money into speakers and amp/pre. That's 95% of the type of sound you'll get. They determine the character of the system more than anything else.

Cheers!

Rob
robbob
Well Rob, again we have to disagree on this one. I am going to give a different perspective. First off, my listening comparisons are over extended periods. As a matter of fact I still have the 3 DACs I have purchased over the past 11 months and also own the Oppo 95 which was purchased during that period. I have listened extensively to all of them in my system and one other system that is different than mine. There ARE differences. When doing a direct AB comparison the differences aren't as readily apparent but the CONCLUSIONS of those differences over extended listening, again two listeners two separate systems were the same and are now quite obvious, at least the DAC of preference, the Wyred over both the Oppo and the Minimax Plus all three using the same chip. The only thing lacking with the Havana is the detail of the other 3. Tonally it is more similar to the Wyred. What is important and was noted with particularly the OPPO, Wyred and EE Minimax Plus is that they require patience and time to break-in before doing any serious listening comparisons, this can't be overemphasized.

So while I do respect that you feel there are little differences between them and I would concur in a direct AB that this is true, if one is able, willing and inclined to do long term listening there should be a preference in a given system. It is quite clear to me which one is better to me, not just different but a better all around performer. I haven't heard all the DACs you mentioned so my comments are based on the 2 in your comparison that I have. Most importantly critical listening in a system to digest differences takes time. My initial impression of the Wyred is not even close to my impression of it now which was due to the break-in period required. Conversely my initial WOW impression of the Plus went in the opposite direction, go figure. I wonder how many people give up before they get a real handle on things? As a footnote I lent one of the DACs to another audiophile friend. He listened for over one month. I gave him absolutely no indication of my impressions of it just that I had purchased another DAC and he was free to listen for an extended period. When I talked to him about his impressions of it, he came to the same conclusion as both myself and my other audio friend that listened extensively to it,"detailed does nothing wrong that I can put my finger on but why is it so fatiguing?" I still don't have an answer other than I feel that tonally it is too light, lacking weight. I listened to it again last night after 2 months and the difference could be heard almost immediately, its that time thing and familiarity that it takes to make the right choice.

I agree with what audiooracle stated. I have what I consider a highly resolving system that has evolved over 12 years and been pretty much constant over the past 5 other than tweeks and vibration control experimentation. My friends system is also very familiar and has similarly evolved over the same period. Differences, if there are any, can be easily discerned. I would love to hear more but wouldn't you agree that four is enough if I am satisfied, at least for the moment?:) As further thought I would wonder now more than ever how much a system difference comes into play and how conclusions can be so different? Why collectively are three different listeners on this side in agreement on what we hear on two different yet familiar systems and others hear things so contrary. Is it taste or are the systems so different that the DACs in question complement one system over another?
more detail and resolution, does not intrinsically denote that the sound is better.>>>>

Some recordings are poorly served by the ninth degree of detail and resolution, but when the planets line up I prefer to have a system that gives me everything that was recorded, or as much as possible. I have stated before that the Minimax + is more forgiving and "sweet" at the top end. I liked it, especially on older recordings. But our general feeling was that the tube stage was not doing the rest of the unit any favors, perhaps coloring the unit. I did not hear it with the better tubes, but the owner said it never altered the issues we heard.
In SS mode the Mimimax retained much of the sweetness, gained detail and space around instruments. It really was no contest. It sounded more like live music in SS mode, if less polite on some recordings.
The W4S 2 was (and still is) the detail champ, but then the Rega and Centrance edge it out in midrange presentation. The Rega and Centrance soundstage is really impressive.

Any STILL...with all of these comments above many people would LAUGH at how alike the units are overall. I have to stop listening to music, disengage myself emotionally and listen to the DACs like a mental patient! That can be fun, but in the end...it's the music I'm interested in much more.

Mrtennis, have you removed the tube and tried the SS stage for a while?

Rob
do you exclude the possibility that a tube dac , with a tube gain stage and a particular nos tube cannot sound very different than a solid state dac ?>>>>

I'd like to address this question, especially given the fact that I heard the Minimax + in two very different systems.
The answer is no. The Mimimax sounded pretty much the same. Extended listening revealed TINY differences in soundstage (weaker in the tube stage), slightly sweeter top end (audible mainly on older harsher recordings) and a bit of thickness in the midrange, especially on vocals. Going the SS mode retained the sweetness and improved other areas.
So the tube added nothing substantial, certainly not in the way my Manley amp does. I've also heard my share of tube CD players now and I'm well convinced that the tubes do little and perhaps even detract from the designs.
My opinion, shared by some and denied by others, is that tubes belong in amps and preamps, but NOT digital source gear. Of course folks will say they heard the greatest tube CDP or DAC, but I believe those units would be even better without the tubes.

Cheers,

Rob
audioengr, very interesting post with many valid points about the economics of small high-end manufacturers--you're clearly well informed. to be clear, the "only 5% is in the actual electronics" quote is a statement from the mf guy, not my personal view. i also have no absolutely doubt that, for the reasons you list, you'll get better performance from higher cost, better-designed DACs utilizing better parts. the issue, as ever, is whether the incremental improvement in performance is worth the extra cost. personally, i subscribe to the OP's original premise--that (unlike speakers or preamps) the sonic differences between good lower-cost DACs and good higher-cost DACs can be small and, subjectively, may not be worth the extra investment. others with better ears or greater desire for sonic nirvana will disagree. finally, i'd reiterate that cost is an imperfect measure of performance--hificritic (which is generally regarded as one of the more credible professional reviewers) tested the v-dac and rated it higher than a lot of other, much swankier products.
Well then I guess I'm going to have to try the Rega just for the hell of it all to see how what you describe will play out in my rig, really curious now. Interestingly it isn't the extra detail of the Wyred that jumps out at me over say the Oppo or the Plus, in that area there are more similarities, it is tonality and the natural flow of the music plus greater weight, notably brass and piano and of course the bass resolution and weight as well. Those are the obvious differences so clearly discernable a reason I find comments regarding it sounding "analytical" baffling and wonder if system differences are somehow coming into play. Is there anyone else out there that hears these differences? Is is no subtle thing to my ears. On another note the characteristics in the Plus with every premium tube, without the tube in the circuit does not CHANGE the leanness of the unit although I agree that the top end upper frequencies are quite exquisite which is what I was initially drawn to. It is the overall tonal balance of the design, it is just too lean for my tastes and system based on what I suspect a compromised power supply.