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The Emperor DAC has no Clothes

I currently use the Rega DAC in a system comprised of Merlin TSM-MXr speakers on Skylan stands. Amp is the Manley Stingray II tube amp. Oppo CD player and Mac Mini feeds the Rega DAC with Pure Music and Cardas cables. My friends system is currently using an ARC integrated with Vanderteen 5a's. He's had the W4S Dac II, EE Minimax Plus, ARC 8 DAC and is currently trying out another borrowed Rega because I won't loan him mine again!

In recent weeks we've tried these DACs in both systems, tweaked and tried various setups. I posted in another thread that the Rega won out against the Minimax Plus and the W4S 2 and that he was partial to the little Centrance.

So here's the thing. The Rega and the ARC sound pretty much the same. So does the W4S 2 and the Minimax. We STRUGGLE to hear the tiny differences between these units! And by "struggle" I mean we use top level recordings and LISTEN LIKE MANIACS again and again. 99% of the time we could not pick these units apart. 100% of the we find that we could be happy with ANY of them! Of course there was a preference for the Rega and the ARC, but boy was it slight! The smallest tweak could shift the balance. A different set of cables, speakers or higher ceiling could easily effect things.

Between the two of us we have something like 65 years of experience with audio. I find it absolutely hilarious when someone posts that a DAC sounds "much" better than another DAC. How is it that we can't hear the same thing, nor can ANY of our friends? We certainly hear a HUGE difference in speakers and amps and very audible ones with cables. But GOOD stand-alone DACs appear to be doing a very good job. MOST people simply list the one or two they've heard in stores as their favorites. If you're looking for a "safe bet" in a DAC you can go with ANY of the models I mentioned above or some of the other fine units out there. Unless someone has your exact system, in the same room and your precise tastes, try not to worry overmuch about DAC A blowing away DAC B.

This was most apparent in trying out the EE Minimax Plus. He tried various tubes and it always sounded best in SS mode! And in that mode it sounded quite like all of the others and about as good as the much less expensive Centrance. So the point of this is to put your efforts and money into speakers and amp/pre. That's 95% of the type of sound you'll get. They determine the character of the system more than anything else.

Cheers!

Rob
robbob
chayro
2,973 posts
 
If spending a lot on hifi seems stupid, you would be stupid if you spent the money. But there are those who would rather have a 10K dac than a 10K... come to think of it, what can you buy for $10K? A nice vacation? An eight-year old Honda Accord? Once again, you are projecting your personal values and ability to hear onto everyone else. Just accept that others can hear things you can't and others may choose to spend their money differently.
robbob OP
273 posts
 
20k should be a drop in he bucket for you - just think of it as another watch or a handbag for your wife. >>

You mention trolling, but you're the one who introduced 10K DACs into a thread discussing DAC's costing quite a bit less...though the ARC Dac is certainly expensive.

You also ignored my comment, which is 100% accurate, that I've heard pricey turntable based systems than no DAC can touch, let alone sound live. So why would anyone spend that kind of cash on a DAC?
IMO there is high end gear and then there's stuff where the returns are crazy small and simply poor money spent. I've heard very expensive amps and speakers whose cost I could understand. This has not been the case for DACs so far and I've expressed clear concern for expensive products that our outclassed by far less pricey ones. Notice the title of the thread?

BTW, my 36 foot sailboat did not cost as much as you suppose. It's more expensive to maintain than to buy. And my wife wouldn't be caught dead with a silly expensive handbag. ;-)

Rob
bryoncunningham
890 posts
 
02-16-12: Learsfool
I think many audiophiles place too much importance on Build Quality. This is much more than slightly subjective, IMO. "Better" technology isn't much of the time...

I introduced the distinction between "build quality" and "design quality" only to illustrate a tempting way of thinking about the determinants of sound quality. I go on to identify two other determinants of sound quality, and surely there are more factors I didn't identify. So I think we're actually in agreement that build quality isn't a definitive determinant of sound quality. It is one factor among many.

02-18-12: Foster_9
"Build quality" matters, but the most important aspect is always sound quality.

Again, I agree.

I also agree with you, Learsfool, that build quality may be more than slightly subjective. Even so, I believe it is less subjective than the other determinants of sound quality I mentioned -- design quality, system quality, and listener quality. This point isn't merely academic, and it bears on the topic of this thread in the following way...

The build quality of affordable (~$1K) dacs often leaves something to be desired, IME. What I mean by this is that the components of the dac are often chosen for cost, rather than performance. This is not a novel observation, of course. Many folks here on A'gon, particularly those interested in modding, are aware that substituting higher quality parts - i.e. improving build quality - can yield dramatic improvements in sound quality.

This has been on my mind lately, as I've been building new crossovers for a set of speakers, replacing not-so-good parts with better ones (yes, better). At this point I've modded 1 of 3 identical speakers, so I can A/B the old and the new crossover with the flip of a switch. So far the results are a major improvement in sound quality. As it happens, I've also been modding my preamp/dac, again with significant improvements to sound quality.

The point I'm wandering around to make is that build quality, while not a definitive determinant of sound quality, is a major determinant of it. And to some extent, build quality is something that an audiophile can change, unlike some of the other determinants of sound quality.

Bryon
robbob OP
273 posts
 
Just accept that others can hear things you can't and others may choose to spend their money differently. >>>

Chayro,....no one is forcing anyone's values on you or the fellow who thinks you need to spend 10K on a DAC. I've voiced my opinion and experience with equipment in two systems. It's only natural for people, especially those who've POSSIBLY invested in fantasy, to defend their point of view.
Like it or not my friends and I...at least some of them...are experienced listeners. We're also fairly pragmatic about the so-called high end of audio, especially after hearing expensive DACs in the last couple of years. Maybe we can't hear and others can. Or maybe we just all hear differently, which is something I've been saying for years. But the bottom line is that we did not find big differences in DACs, certainly not on the level of Amps (as a simple single example). The only thing I've been saying is that differences between DACs are small, and in many cases pretty hard to hear. I created a bigger sonic change in my system with simple tweaks than I did between certain DACs.

The two systems we used are fairly well balanced and thought out. Our rooms are treated. I have an isolated power leg for my system. We can "hear" subtle stuff and we protected our hearing over the years. I reported in good detail the differences between the units. I just didn't find it a big deal. Not in the way I did with other gear. It's more like the differences between Canon and Nikon DSLR's. As much as fan-boys like to pretend there are big differences...they're just not there. I guess some people don't see what they see either.

Now...what can I buy for 10K? Well that's rather silly! How about a fully isolated power leg in your home for the stereo system? I actually have that and it'll improve your system more than a better DAC and it won't cost 10K (depending on your house). What about all of the music I could buy? Or the room treatments? I bet a lot, if not most folks who pay big for a DAC could do better with their system if they spent that money on other tweaks. C'mon, dude. You missed out on the point of the thread. And again....no one's forcing you to buy a 300 dollar DAC or a 3000 DAC. This is a forum to report and exchange ideas.

I have heard expensive speakers sound HUGELY better than other speakers costing the same money. The same goes for amps, cables and turntables. I have not observed this with DACs. In fact no one I know has except for the salesmen, certain reviewers and the people who bought them.

That's my experience thus far. I like my Rega DAC, even prefer it marginally over others, but it impacts my system the least of all my components. I see that as a good thing.

Rob
learsfool
1,215 posts
 
Hi Bryon - yes, we are basically in agreement. The whole build quality thing gets argued about much more by vinyl guys, particularly on the asylum. My main point in this context is to state that too many audiophiles tend to assume that just because component A uses a more expensive part than component B, that it is therefore going to sound better. This is of course not to say that many components cannot be improved, just that the cost is not necessarily the issue.
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