Is high-end audio dying, if not dead already???

08-17-14: Akg_ca
The irrefutable tenet in this hobby still reigns true: you get what you pay for.

To cite just one counter-example, however, this post from just yesterday describes a situation involving speakers in which the exact opposite turned out to be true. I'm sure that a little searching would disclose a great many more such instances, even in situations where system matching and system synergy were addressed as carefully as possible.

I fail to see how "you get what you pay for" can be regarded as an "irrefutable tenet" in high end audio. I would say that at best a **loose** correlation can be expected, but nothing more.

Regards,
-- Al

"The internet buyers don't want to pay full retail and they should not have to since they get nothing for the markup from the dealer."

That's not true. Just because a dealer sells a product on the internet doesn't mean there is no service provided. Most, if not all legit internet audio dealers do have a physical location with employees just like a B&M store. Here's a small list of things that an internet dealer has to do or provide their customers.

Sales consultation. Customers still need help with all aspects of making a purchase. It really doesn't matter if they walk in or call in.

Inventory must be stocked. Yes, sometimes an item is drop shipped from the mfg, but that's not always the case. Most dealer agreements require a minimum inventory of products that are to be kept.

Not every piece of audio equipment is made in the same country that it gets sold in. That usually requires the dealer to import the product, or deal with an importer in the same fashion that they would a mfg.

Handle warranties.

Possibly do basic repairs.

After sale support.

Have to deal with a higher rate of returns because there is no local B&M store the customer can visit.

Internet dealers have all the same business expenses that most regular businesses have.

Then there is the actual dealer agreement. Those things are loaded with all kinds of specific requirements. Rules for selling. Territory. Pricing. Insurance requirements. Competence requirements for dealers. Advertising requirements. Minimum purchases. Other brands and equipment the dealer must have to properly support a specific brand.

And there's plenty more on top of all that. Just to be clear, I'm not saying the business model isn't changing, I'm just pointing out that there is a significant amount of overhead involved in an internet based audio business. These business do provide real services to their customers. And even though we are seeing more factory direct types of businesses, they're not the norm. Companies that manufacture audio components, still need dealers to handle aspects of the business that they can't.

"But does this mean the end of high end audio? No it's just the end of the old model. Personally I don't care if every B&M dealer goes under tomorrow. It's inevitable anyway. I don't use B&M dealers. Can't afford the mark up. The new model will be internet direct sales with 30 day home trials."

I think you are partially right on that, but its not something I would wish for as an audiophile. That model may get by for entry and mid level quality gear, but as the gear gets more expensive and specialized, a B&M dealer really becomes necessary. For example, lets say you want to buy a really nice pair of speakers like Wilson, Avalon, JM Labs, or any other big expensive speaker in the same league. If there were no B&M stores, selling speakers like that would not be realistic. In order for a proper demo, products at that level need to be setup properly and matched to equipment that brings out the best in them. Stuff like that can't be done mail order. Could you imagine a company like Wilson doing business that way? Chances are that they wouldn't be able to stay in business. Also, you may say, I'll just buy used and sell them at a small loss if the speakers are not for me. That can be a valuable strategy. I've done it myself. The problem with just looking at the situation from that perspective is that you still need people to buy new speakers before you can even have a used market. That's why I don't want to see B&M stores go out.

That said, your post is excellent. These type of topics really need to be discussed. I don't think too many audiophiles consider what's involved in getting audio components form the manufacturer to the end customer. There's a lot involved. Last, I know that many will list bad experiences that they had when using dealers. Unfortunately, I think that way too many of those complaints are true. The only thing I can say to that is to try and find a good dealer, and support them, if possible. And if anyone knows any good dealers, maybe they should be mentioned to others looking for one.

Of course not. Think about it, is Porsche, Farari and Aston Martin dead and going out of business? They are not, and will continue to thrive. High end, luxury goods will always have a market for it is and always has been about 'status'. Humans are built that way. Listening, and actually driving, has little to do with it. An Aston dealership recently opened in my town, selling their $300K machines. Our high end audio store, which has been here for 30 years, is doing well. We have a B&O retail store. Even a record store with tons of vinyl. So, dead and dying, no I do not think so.

High-end audio seems to now ( as the old joke goes)require a degree in engineering or rocket science to understand the circuitous (bad pun) route to audio nirvana.

Well, I think the truth is much more simple. The Inspirations for modern High End are written in that book. Unfortunately most "designers" have their own sample, so it is a bit vague to rate their ideas correctly. But in our modern time a solution for correct translation was found: The name of the tool is: Marketing

Zd542,

Two points you made that I don't agree with. First, I've been buying from internet dealers for a long time and you are wrong, no way do they have the same over head that a B&M store does. Not even close. And if done well they can reach a national audience which is what is needed to stay in business. In the many transactions that I've engaged in with internet dealers, they acted as simple order takers. There was zero pre sales service or post sales service and I don't expect any. Give me the product at 35% off and have a nice day.

I'm old enough to remember when B&M audio stores had a great model and the difference was volume. They did big volume. Now, they are like car dealerships. It's horrible. They expect you to only visit when you are ready to spend $10k. You visit, you listen, now you spend $10k. Sorry, but not very many people can afford that model. But they have to be like that, they have NO customers. I never go to these places anymore, but when I did most of the time I was the only person in the entire store. The model doesn't work anymore.

The other thing you said I don't agree with is that the used market would be hurt if people stopped buying new gear from B&M dealers. This is wrong. If the manufactures were openly selling at lower markup over the internet than the used prices would just be cheaper. People would still buy new gear just without the 45% dealer markup. Then the used market would also benefit from lower prices. Look at a company like wyred4sound. They sell an amp for $2k that would be $4k if sold by a B&M store. When it sells used, it's just all that much cheaper.

And as for a company like wilson doing business as an internet operation. Not sure. I will say that people do buy wilson speakers all the time here on audiogon. So the used market is willing to buy these products mail order.