Vintage Turntable: AR Es-1 vs Denon DP-60L

Another vote for the AR. I still miss mine, even though I adore its replacement, a Gyro SE. The AR with a Linn tonearm and Clearaudio cart gave me my first glimpse of what a "good" turntable sounded like :)

As others have said, it's quite a bouncy suspension so do make provisions for proper isolation. In terms of servicing, it's a pretty simple design so not difficult to service and you can still get belts for it.

If you're thinking of getting one, and you're getting it from anything less than a reputable dealer/owner, and if you're not so handy with TT setups, do take it to a trusted tech for a once over--make sure the moving parts are clean and working smoothly, suspension is sound, bearing properly lubed, tonearm and cart set up precisely, etc.

I still own my AR ES-1, and I did own a direct drive Denon for a number of years in the '80's. I love the AR and prefer it, but I was surprised how great the Denon sounded also, it definitely held its own, at least in my system.

What I remember is that the quality of manufacture of the Denon direct drives seemed to go downhill at one point in time, like they were cutting corners by making components thinner and lighter, and unfortunately I don't remember the model number of my fine unit or any of the others. I think my Denon unit was from the days of "S" shaped arms (was there an advantage to that?), circa 1980.

Art

Nonsense..Clearly the Denon, I own excellent examples of both...Belt drive never holds it's speed..Or should i say sometimes holds it speed ..and don't get me started on Rega's joke of a motor and bearings..No offense intended..I know to late..)

I own a vintage Denon DD table and have it mated to a Denon DL-301MKII cart and it is a wonderful performing/sounding rig in my system. It's been re-capped with quality gear and I expect another 20 years from it.

I know many audiophiles that swear by vintage Denon tables and have had them in their systems for years. A buddy in Australia just recently purchased the table you are considering - the DP - 60L - and he adores it.

I'm not quite certain why the negative press here on the Denon's but if you prefer suspended belt-driven decks then go for it. There are plenty of AR fans out there too!

These are tables with different attributes, philosophies and sounds.

Good luck with the decision!

cat9

I own an AR ES1 and also a MMF 9.1 and have used a VPI 19 Mk 3 for sometime and have owned direct drive tables. Here are a few observations:

The "nonsense comment" above regarding belt drive table stability is perhaps misleading. Generally, belt drives cost effectively isolate the motor and platter and dramatically reduce the transfer of motor and bearing noise to the stylus compared to direct and idler wheel designs. Direct and idler designs will transfer any problems straight into the platter that will impact sound quality.

A review of wow and flutter test done in the 60s - 80s shows that stability is a function of excellent execution of the design vs the use of belts or direct drive approaches to turn the platter.

Direct drive can work and sound great but require great attention to detail and quality control which can be difficult to build at a reasonable price point. Belt designs are generally more forgiving and yield excellent stability at a lower price point.

Finally, note that many belt drive tables can have a stability problem if the belt is 40 years old/never replaced. Slack in a belt, failure to apply talcum powder to the belt and dried lubricant in the main thrust bearing of any turntable drive design can and will cause stability problems.