Teres vs VPI, SME, Origin Live, etc.

Raul, Your duplicity is actually a bit shocking. Lets contrast a few of your statements:

1) "Yes, the Galiber and the Red Point beats Teres". So when may I ask did you evaluate these three turntables? What were the circumstances? Were the components optimally matched? Of course it's really unlikely that you have heard any of the three turntables, but yet your comments are suprisingly authoratative.

2) "I think that this conclusion is a premature one... your conclusion is not really a conclusive one... other way any evaluation was a premature one and a faulty one with no value at all"
These were your comments about a very well controlled, side by side evaluation where all of the variables were kept the same except for the item being evaluated. Not only that but it was conducted with a group of experienced audiophiles, with a variety of music and with very clear consensus from the group. Yep, there will always be the possibility of flaws in both method and conclusions. But this evaluation was about as good as it gets.

How can you possibly hold both positions? You take a comment from somebody that you don't know, with absolutely no detail or supporting evidence and hold it up as fact. To make matters worse when the lack of facts was pointed out you simply repeated the same baseless assertion.
Then you have the audacity to claim that Doug and Lugnuts evaluations are flawed and of no value??

You certainly have well illustrated that something is indeed flawed.

Hello:
Claiming that a product comparison has no value because components were not at their optimum reminds me of the old Linn claim. "The table was not set up right", if the Linn was not prefered.
The enthusiastic members here should not be insulted like this. They want as much as anyone to hear the differences in components. I believe they too will set the best conditions they can. What makes anyone else better at it. Does anyone have credentials in Proper Set-Upology?
If there is any "twisting" its with groundless critisisms and endorsments.
I have tried several tables and arms. I found the Teres and now Schreoder products to give me the best performance. For my money nothing beats a Teres. For lots of money the Schroeder gives you a wonderful product. I used this forum to gather some of my research on new products. I'm glad I did. My prefernces are conclusive, for now. Regards.

Pontus,I am happy to see a real insight into the psychology of "The goings on here".Your points,to me are refreshing,and appreciated.Your perspective is a lesson to me,and any others of open mind.Thanks!

Dear friends: I think that the problem with this forum is that it is a " biased " forum.
Here exist too many Fan Clubs with all the problems and close-in limitations of any Fan CluB: Teres Fan Club, ZYX Fan Club, Schroeder Fan Club, deaf people cartridge Fan Club, VTA Fan Club, inaccurate " equalizers " Fan Club, horns Fan Club, etc....
All these Fan Clubs stay with the same old paradigms and when any one of them confront a new paradigm, this one is like a " evil/devil " one and stay away, with out think about, from that " devil ". This is not a mature position and does not help to the development of the quality music/sound reproduction.

++++++ " You take a comment from somebody that you don't know, with absolutely no detail or supporting evidence and hold it up as fact. " +++++++

This was what Teres post: so, Wildwildwes is only " somebody ", because is not an active member of the Teres Fan Club. Very sad to " hear " this opinion.

Teres I'm not against your TTs, I have a lot of respect for you like a product designer. You choose your trade-off criteria design. As you know I already " heard " one of your TTs ( I'm not repeat what I already post about ) and I heard severals heavy mass all-metal TTs, ( in the same conditions ) almost all beats yours or almost any wood/acrilyc TT design. The Wildwildwes post only confirm my statement about.
Dear Teres, you are heavy biased through your design it is almost imposible to have a civilized dialogue about, please do it a favor: buy an Acoustic Signature Final Tool
TT ( third from the AS TT line ) and do a private ( only you ) evaluation against any of your TTs, this is the only way where yo can break your old paradigms.

+++++ " As Lugnut mentioned, cartridge/arm synergy is vital. With UNIverses on the TriPlanar VII and Schroeder Reference we had to A/B the same track 5 or 6 times before anyone would say a word. They were that close. This didn't happen with any other comparisons we made, 30 seconds was often enough. " ++++++

This is a Doug post, who is one of the: ++++ " group of experienced audiophiles " ++++++ Doug, btw no one of those tonearms are my cup of tea.

The A/B evaluations with LP are not of good value: when you play a track you have to wait between 12 to 24 hours for the vinyl track return to its original condition.
This group evaluations had a great fun but poor value, there are conscience or inconscience bias presure between the group members: the group force to any one to choose what they want or what they think.
Any serious evaluation have to be made individually, this is a must, with any external opinion till you do your invidually evaluation: this have a great value.

30 seconds was often enough: in 30 seconds you only know that both item sounds different and that one of them impress you more than the other, but don't really tell you which is better and why is better. For your individually evaluation will conclusive you have to do the evaluation in the " long run ", it is the only way for to have a great value opinion, other way you have a poor value opinion. I give an example: when I start in this forum I post that the Shelther 901 was on the high fidelity side and not as a high end top performer, Doug was angry with my statement but 3 to 4 months later he agree on that subject.

I always feel that I'm in a fight against you all. Any of the threads on this forum it is not a contest: why you put on this way, always ?, it is not important who win or who is right: what is important is what all of us could learn on any subject in music favor, that's all.

I think that all of us can do it a favor: try to post un-biased opinions. I know that this is more easy to say that to do but I think that we all have to try and in this way everybody wins.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Just so that everyone here knows my situation with regard to the products tested recently and referred to here I offer the following. I do not own nor plan to buy a Teres turntable. I have been critical of Teres in another thread but overall believe it to be a superior design. I love the 360 as it incorporates many of the features alluded to in Raul's preferences. It is a glorious sounding table IMHO. I don't own or plan to own an Illustrious but have a lot of experience with one. I don't own a Schroder, Triplanar or Graham arm nor do I plan on purchasing one. I don't own a ZYX or Lyra cartridge and don't plan on purchasing one of these either. I don't have a horse in this race or a dog in this fight. Group pressure simply didn't exist here and I'm about as immune to it as one gets. Of course, I really couldn't be insulting of any of the gear we listened to because it's all really good and much better than my own. I will concede that perhaps this group likes/seeks similar end results and if this is a bias then every person that posts to these threads are biased. We know what we want. It's just how do we get there from here. I was invited to this event because kind people believed it would be an experience I would enjoy and appreciate. I enjoyed myself more during this long weekend than I ever have before in auditioning any other audio components. I appreciate what I was privelidged to participate in because I know how rare this opportunity really was. My personal analog gear consists of a Linn LP12/Ittok/Sumiko Blue Point Special. Obviously I'm not in the same league as the other attendees but I've been in this hobby longer than most, never bailed on the vinyl format and have listened to most of the upper end analog front ends available. I may have many personal defects but my hearing is very good and my audio memory is better than most. In my system and with my income I would order a Schroder 2 and purchase a Sumiko Celebration and mount it on my Linn. I know that this group would approve of my decisions since these items would be a huge leap from where I am now and clearly on the same path toward an eventual Reference and Universe. They would all be glad for me just as I am glad for them with their own personal choices that I firmly believe are on the right path toward audio excellence. I think the only opinions I expressed that were negative was my low opinion of the Illustrious and having a much higher opinion of the other arms over the Graham. That's really not an insult to the Graham at all as it's a fine arm. To my ears I liked what I liked and honestly tried to give an unbiased opinion. Comments like needing to rest a piece of vinyl for 12 to 24 hours before repeating a play would require one to rely on their audio memory over an immediate A/B or either have multiple copies of the same recording. Even then we all know that records of later manufacture are likely less likely to be a good as an earlier pressing which would lead to even more, "yeah, but's". We did do extended listening with each combination after critical evaluation. Sure, we didn't have the luxury of having something playing for a couple of weeks and then make a change. Even that method is subject to criticism as we all know with the "your ears got used to it" blather. Believe what you want to believe but the group tried really hard to be honest in my estimation. Doug owns a Triplanar and talked about the merits of the Schroder. Steve owns a Triplanar and ordered a Schroder after this audition and probably will keep his current arm. One man is buying a 360 and another is likely going to do a custom upgrade of his Teres from its current configuration. Still, another is jumping off the audio treadmill and saying enough is enough. I'm staying put where I am even though everything we auditioned is a giant leap up from where I am.