Do you think you need a subwoofer?

Dear friends: This is for the people that already have or want to have or likes REL subwoofers.

The REL subwoofers are a very good ones subs, no question about.

As any one can " read " in the REL owner manual, that the REL design is primarily for " bass reinforcement on full range speakers ". That's why the REL people recomended that their subs must be installed near the corners and why the REL subs ( normally ) works summing-up the left/right channels signal for works in mono way for less distortion. Other characteristic is that the REL subs does not have high-pass filters for a true stereo performance.

The bass reinforcement REL design is oriented to the HT application and not for a " true proper stereo integration of subwoofers for a music/accurate sound reproduction at home ".

Of course, if you like, you can use it in your stereo system but is totally inadequate an inaccurate for the MUSIC reproduction. Maybe you could use, in the right way, the REL subs with the help of an external electronic crossover.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Very interesting discussion. In the past month, my first experience integrating a sub-woofer into my system had some unexpected results. My Edgar Seismic Sub arrived about a month ago, before the Edgarhorn speakers. The Seismic is a 6' tall folded horn driven by a 18" JBL 2440. While waiting for the Edgarhorns, I practiced integrating the sub with my Alon Circes, which are rated flat ~ 20 Hz. Rather than bass reinforcement, the most noticable difference with the sub and Alons was improvement in sense of accoustic space. There were more cues to the physical size of the recording. For example, it was clearer to sense an intimate jazz venue from a symphony hall from a recording studio. The next difference was improvement in the clarity of mid and high frequencies. On the other hand, it was alot of work finding proper balance between sub bass level and overlap with the Circe, especially since there was no low-pass option on the dedicated sub x-over to roll-off the Circe's output level. I ended up using the lowest crossover setting of 30 Hz, and fairly low level. Now, with the Circes replaced by the Edgarhorns, it is completely different. The horns roll off at 80 Hz, and I'm still trying to find the proper x-over point and level and placement. Placement is limited due to the physical size of the horn sub. It is almost, but not all the way, into a corner. Also, the x-over point is much higher and more audible, ~ 70 Hz. The slope is 24 dB/octave, so I may need to go still lower. And still working on level matching, especially since Bruce recommends up to 6dB boost ~ 30Hz. So many variables to lock down. As for proper stereo reproduction, I am not prepared to commit to a second Seismic Sub, since my room size is only 15' x 18'. Anyway, my experience taught me that the benefit of the sub is NOT so much bass reinforcement, as spatial and clarity up higher. Thanks for a good thread.

Skushino, I've seen those Edgar subs at his shop which 15 minutes from my home. The Seismic is about the size of a refrigerator, but does bass in a way that I hve never heard before. Sound just eminates from all directions rather being pushed AT YOU. It can literally charge the room with acoustic waves from the nether regions.

Edgar's Titan/Seismic sub combo is a system that everyone should experience a few times whether you like horns or not. It is one of the most effortless, seamless, presentations of sound likely to be heard. No shouting, or typical "cupped hands" sound associated with most poorly designed horns. Just sound appearing out of space.

Having said that little advertisement for Edgarhorns, I've been having the same problems properly placing my dual Cain & Cain Bailey subwoofers in the proper spot to seamlessly integrate with C&C's six foot IM-Ben horns.

I'm using a Paradigm X-30 subwoofer x-over, which does summed mono outputs. Intial sub x-o point is 80Hz which seems to be a fairly transparent spot, any higher and bass tends to become boomy.

So far, placing both subs just inside the two, 8 foot apart horns overloaded the room. The Baileys are ported on the side, but I have them with the drivers facing forward and ports facing each other. Outside the horns was a little cleaner with seemingly less spl output.

A few months ago, Terry Cain set these exact speakers up in another person's home and he had the Baileys between the IM-Bens just as I have, but he had the subs angled twoards each other. That room was much smaller than mine, but I am going to try variations of that next.

I need a true subwoofer amp, though. The intermediate Denon AV receiver that I'm using to power them seems completely out of it's league, powerwise.

Dear Goatwuss: About fast/low subwoofers please read the links on this link: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&4&4#4

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Darkmoebius: I'm not very familiarized with the Bailey subwoofers but I understand that has integrated low/high pass filters: why you are using the Paradigm XO?

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.