Do you think you need a subwoofer?

Dear Scott and Darkmoebius: You are really trying hard the subs integration on your system. This is the only way to do it. We have to have: patience, very good " ears ", high musical experience, very good reference " sound " ( CD/LP ) and more patience.

+++++ " .When you get it "right",you'll immediately know it,as the system will "open up",while retaining proper "weight"!Best of luck! " +++++

Sirspeedy is right, but that is more easy to " tell " than to do it and that is the whole end of the subs integration.

One tip that works for me was: play a little with music with out bass or very little bass contents ( better with CD than with LP ) and compare with subs and with out subs. With this test you could know if the subs volume and crossover frecuency is on target or near target.

Other tip: for a little time don't do more " subs changes ", stay with what you think is " near to the best integration ": listen to your system for two-three days, then go to listen to a live event ( live music ), wait one-two days before you " play " music again on your system, after this " system break " start again with your system and do the adjustements that you think it needs.
If you can't go to listen to live music, then only do the " system break " for two-three times and " see " what happen.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Raul- On every single commercial sub set-up I have seen, the subwoofer is set up behind the satellite speakers, usually but not always in the corner. Every single white paper about LF acoustics describes a phase delay at these frequencuies.

So it seems that the subs should be placed at least even, preferably in front of the satellites, nearer the listener, if you want to compensate for phase. Only your system and one other guy I know has it set-up this way. the other guy's system is very nice.

So why does almost everyone put the sub behind the satellites??? Aesthetics? Convenience? Sound?

I am interested in your answer, but I will try placing the subs forward and draw my own conclusion.

Regards,
scott

Darkmoebius,love your set-up,BTW.You seem to be following a very similar path as I did,when I tried integrating my sub "addition" to my main speakers.My friends ALL were against my adding a sub,in fear of poor integration.However with the technology available in low freq systems,I simply had to try to add that extra bit(I wasn't looking for much)of depth.Took me 2 years of auditioning too.

My room is a dedicated one 22.5x13x8,so I have my main speakers about 8 ft out,into the room.Floors are concrete.I have my sub behind the right speaker and a bit to it's right,in the right corner.Actually it is 22 inches from back wall,and 22 inches from sidewall.My main speakers are 39 inches from side walls,when measured to center of cabinet.Hope this helps.I sit 9.5 feet away from main speakers.This placement of sub,though always in right corner took EONS to get right!I'm talking about the "Rubics Cube" aspect of crossover point,placement,and gain setting.

You appear to be on the right track,and I'm sure you'll report back,soon,that you have found NIRVANA!!One thing:try to keep the main speakers out,well into the room,with really careful corner(NOT too close to corners though,as the subs need to breathe)placement of subs.I know you have to live in that room,but Audio is MORE important than your wife or mother in law's opinion!!Right?Besides a nice piece of shiny "BLING" always helps me,to get what I want.Try it!

What you are looking for(and I'm not trying to come off as an expert,so obviously feel free to improvise)is a superb sense of true "depth of soundstage",with a deep,but not overdone,sense of weight.Believe me,if you think the subs may be set too low,but are hearing low freqs and a subtle sense of pressure in room,on certain material,you are probably close to where you want to be.

Way too many set-ups are too bass heavy.When a mfgr or reviewer,for that matter,claims that the primary feature of a speaker system's impressive sound is the "GREAT BASS",that tells me it is,usually,too much bass!Which is fun,but destroys inner voicings,and subtle fine detail.Though plenty of people love this(ever pull up to a car with a MEGA BOOM BOX car system?Think he/she cares about inner voicings?).This can also,merely be my own taste.I don't care about cracking my plaster,but I do get off on a wonderful sense of inner detail,and soundstage depth,with a subtle underpinning of low frequencies;and to answer a suspicion by Raul--My crossover of 24 hz,does NOT impact anything above 40 hz.Careful set-up (not specs)has seen to that.Believe me,I would not want to go through it any time soon,but I am a fanatic.Guilty,but not sorry!!



Let's face it:when we are told a sub set-up will enhance the main speaker's midrange,it seems to me that the main speaker's mid is suspiciously lacking something.Usually the mid thickens up,when the low bass is too much,or even just a bit too much;but then there is a slight loss of subtle fine detail.It has to be sort of like Goldie Lox's porrage--JUST RIGHT!Then there is the magic,which I'm convinced you will have,as you have a "WORLD CLASS" set-up.Best wishes!!

Skushino, I tried the subs in-line w/ mains....

I made sure they were both exactly the same distance from the front wall, then tried them outside and inside of the mains - near wall, away from wall.

Between the mains, things started to open up and deepen at about 4.5 ft from the back wall out to ~8 ft at the Cardas Golden Ratio for setup. The difference in depth of soundstage between those two distances didn't seem to be too great. But, I got a marked difference when I angled the subs almost 45 degrees towards each other (the middle). That added a lot of air and space.

Unfortunately, that was 2am and the differences could have been from fatigue. Like an idiot, the next day I started moving things around and cannot find that exact spot again.

But, when I moved the subs to the corners there was a noticable difference in depth. The only problem was that it seemd like the bass frequencies were slightly disconnected, lagging, or behind(time-wise) the rest of the music.(This was with the speakers 7 ft out and subs in corner) Nothing obvious, just a subtle feeling that kind of threw off the cohesiveness of everything.

As I moved the mains back toward the wall (and subs) the timing began to integrate again. Right now, at 4 ft. from the wall, the timing issue isn't readily noticable yet.

SirSpeedy's:

I'm going to try mocing the subs out of the corner more to see how that works. Oddly, I also have my mains 39" from th side wall. This places them at the null of 84Hz width mode(though sitting in the center-width of the room already deos this). So far, that seems to the best spot for maximizing soundstage width while maintaining imaging.

Skushino - Audio Physics advises against subs in-line w/ mains. (see bottom of page)

"If you encounter any problems with this set-up, you may consider adding a subwoofer, which should not be placed in line with the speakers."