Schroeder arms: order of merit?

Gosh, I'm not quite sure where to start ... let's consolidate:

1. To Gmorris:

I'd love to know how you can consider my comments in my original post June
24th on to be "patronizing if not condescending" (as you stated on 06-30).
From that June 24th post:

My take on Graham tonearms (extensive experience with both the 2.2 ceramic
& the Robin), is that they are an expression of a different musical
sensibility than either the Triplanar or the Schroeder.

Bob Graham is a great fellow and extremely competent engineer. The Robin
embodies quite a large percentage of the performance of the 2.2 and Bob is
to be congratulated for this. It's really quite an achievement. The arm gets
unfairly dissed because of it's pedestrian appearance. Bob decided to put
the engineering where it counted - in the sonics and not appearances. I
think he made the right choices.

It is because of my confidence in Bob's capabilities, coupled with what I
know to be a different approach to reproduction (and therefore his ability
to realize this aesthetic at a higher level in the Phantom) that has me not
rushing out to hear the Phantom. In due time, I will get to hear it, but I
have so much on my plate at the moment, that it is nowhere near the top of
my list.

Will I play with a Phantom at some time? Absolutely! We all have to play
triage with our time, however. I have a new platter and armboard to
develop, and it's the peak of the bicycling and climbing season here in
Colorado.

It is exactly because I know that Bob has a vision and knows how to manifest
it into reality that makes me less than anxious to carve time I don't have
in order to try one. If a vineyard produces excellent Merlot, but you don't
like Merlot, would you rush out to buy 5 cases? I think not. Could the
wine be so good that you become converted to Merlot? Possibly.

2. To Speedy:

I think we're in complete agreement. My comments about tubes and cartridges
was intended to say that a good design (an amplifier, or a turntable/tonearm
combo) should not depend on high quality tubes and cartridges in order to
convey the musical truth.

I absolutely agree with you that these designs benefit greatly from choice
tubes and cartridges. The comment was directed at designs which throw
boutique components at a problem instead of implementing solid engineering
practices.

In the realm of weird, good tubes, I've been wrestling with a line stage
design which uses the 71a tube - a directly heated triode. My buddies are
using an even more esoteric tube for their version of this line stage - a
Telefunken RS-241. Still, I go back and forth with the circuit - plugging
in garden variety 6SN7's, 12B4A's and 1626's, because if it sounds bad with
these tubes, I know I'm doing something wrong. The final design (if I ever
finish) will most definitely use special tubes.

Again ... I should really consider carrying the Graham or at least sourcing
it for my customers. I have no right to dictate (and it's not my intention)
this fine a degree of taste to anyone.

3. To Albertporter:

You are absolutely correct about the alignment system. Conceptually it is
brilliant and well implemented. I think that it affords the type of fellow
who does not pay great attention to setup, the opportunity to get much
closer than they normally would.

The problem with the alignment jig arises from the fact that it depends on
precisely dialing in the pivot to spindle distance by plugging the hole in
the headshell into a plastic extension that is fit over the record spindle.

This would work perfectly with a fixed bearing tonearm. With the unipivot,
there is inherent rocking, and you cannot get this pivot to spindle distance
setting "nuts on". When I used this technique and then verified it with my
protractor, the overhang was off by a bit over a millimeter.

My advice to people is to experiment for themselves and see what works.

If you get a chance, you should come up to the Rocky Mountain Audiofest
http://www.audiofest.net/ at the end of September. Allocate a
few extra days and catch the changing season in the high country. It's a
truly spectacular time of year. You'll get to hear a Walker in the Red Rock
Audio room. Lloyd will be there and have set it up. I'd love to meet you.

4. To Cello (Larry):

I'm an ex New Yorker. After some 15 years in Colorado, does it still show
(cheek bulging from tongue - likely in conjunction with size 9.5 foot firmly
planted in mouth).

5. To Thomasheisig:

Two things that may not be apparent is that for many small manufacturers and
distributors - audio is not their primary business. If it were, we'd all be
on welfare. Truth be told, I have no good reason to promote Schroeder
tonearms because we all as resellers can get very few on an annual basis.
My 2005 annual allotment almost sold out. It is more in my best interest to
carry as many brands and sell the product which requires the least support
and makes me the most money. From this perspective, I am acting against my
own best interest by not selling the Graham.

As far as taking risks and submitting my products for review, I have done
this. While my 'table received "only " a Class B rating from Stereophile, I
expected nothing more from a reviewer who still maintains that the Linn
Sondek is the single machine that cures all of the world's ills. Truth be
told, the only reason I submitted to the review was to lend an air of
"reality" to my small company - that it really exists. I knew all too well
that without being an advertiser that I would not a rating consistent with
the sound I know I'm producing.

If you are interested, you can read the review here:
http://stereophile.com/artdudleylistening/1004listening/ and my
manufacturer's reply here: http://www.galibierdesign.com/rants_03.html.

6. To Flyingred:

Thanks for the encouragement. I ain't such a bad guy when you get to meet
me.

Yes, the new Internet model allows crazy guys with more passion than common
sense to build and sell gear having entry point into an industry that did
not exist 10 years ago. We all win with this new model.

I think that forums like this provide a 2-way feedback loop (sometimes
feedback can be good) by blurring the line between manufacturer and
consumer. I have an extensive rant about this on my blog
(http://www.galibierdesign.com/blog.html#20050601) if you're interested. I won't bore you more with it here.

In forums like this, we all learn valuable lessons from each other as well
as making new friends who share our passion.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

Thom,you Are a gentleman,first and foremost!!Best regards.

Lapaix: May I relate my experience the Schroeder Reference? For over 30 + years I have been a Tube and LP guy. Over that period of time I have auditioned/listened to so many combinations of tonearms/turntables that I feel somewhat jaded. On a Bell Curve I estimate 97% or so fall in the middle , a tad are down-right failures ( mostly early attempts at stereo T/A or sloppy plastic cheapies ) and mostly none in the top 1%. That all changed for me when Frank appeared at my good friend's home, Barry Tayman in Columbia , Maryland (USA) , where Frank personally installed his Reference Tone-Arm on a Verdier. The results were shocking. Frank's work obilerated a $15k+ TA/TT combo within moments of playing time. That's how good the Schroeder/Verdier mating can be. Lord knows what that T/A contributes to other turntables but I feel confidant that the result I had the pleasure to experience would probably be repeated with other Turntable renditions. Note that I have avoided comment on cartridges because to me that purchase is the most personal of all being dependent on factors including age, sex and hearing ability. But make no mistake whatever cartridge one chooses the Schroeder will extract more of its "soul" than what you could expect. In closing, I recommend that all TT folks read a tome by George Merrill " How to Set Up and Tune Your TurnTable and Tone Arm" sold by "Underground Sound" in Memphis,Tennessee(USA). Slightly dated but nevertheless quite a helpful guide for a lifetime of T/A an'TT pleasure. Cheers To All

Just yesterday I had an opportunity to hear a Schroder Reference and the Graham Phantom on the same turntable (Teres 360). They were fitted with different cartridges (Lyra Olympus on the Schroder and a Koetsu Tiger eye platinum with a diamond cantilever in the Phantom). There was not enough time to switch cartridges so we were not able to do a true apples to apples comparison. However, I did form some opinions that others may find useful. Remember I said OPINIONS so please, no flames.

From what I heard the Phantom appears to be big improvement over the 2.2. I thought that the Schroder/Olympus
combination was clearly better overall. However, the gap was smaller than I would have expected. Reading between the lines a bit I suspect that the Schroder is still quite a bit ahead of the Phantom.

The Phantom has the same ease of setup as the 2.2 and great build quality. There was one small glitch with the setup. The Phantom has less lower VTA range than the 2.2. For this
particular setup there was only about 1/16" downward range left when it was dialed in. Odd that Bob would make a change in this parameter.

I would also like to confirm Cello's comments. I owned a Graham 2.2 for about 1-1/2 years and at the time it was my favorite, easily displacing an older Triplanar. However, it was completely out classed by the Schroder Reference. I spent considerable time with both arms so this was not just a quick comparison. This conclusion was confirmed twice during the well conducted comparisons that Cello has already discussed.

Albert: The setup for these evaluations were carefully done . No doubt all of the parameters were not dialed in to perfection, but they were close. Similar effort went into each tonearm setup so in my mind the playing field was even. If am arm needs hours of fine tuning to sound right then that should be considered to be a liability. That liability rightly should be part of the evaluation equation. Not that I think that came into play here, more of a philosophical point. Besides that magnitude of the differences we heard between each of the tonearms was much more than what could be explained by setup differences.

Gmorris: Love fest you say... Funny how this mantra often comes up when a group of people enthusiastically endorse a product. It would pay to ask why the "love fest" exists rather than dissing it. Maybe it is simply because the product is a good as it is claimed to be. I both recommend and sell Schroder tonearms. From a business perspective this is a poor practice. Many sales have been and are stalled waiting for a tonearm from heir Schroder. So what possible motivation could I have for recommending Schroder tonearms other than I think that they are the best choice for my customers. I have an arrangements to OEM Graham, Basis, Orign Live, Morch and Triplanar tonearms. All of these tonearms have better availability. I recommend Schroder tonearms because I believe in them. When I find a better tonearm, I will recommend it. No conspiracy here.

Teres,thanks SO much for the feedback.I find your comments extremely interesting,and will consider them at a future point.Though you do indicate there were two differing cartridges at play,I feel confident that you were able to extrapolate some meaningful results.That being said,I do wish you could report back,soon,as to a final comparison using the same cartridge.

Recently Michael Fremer,giving a RAVE review of the Phantom (which I'm sure is wonderful)stated that he could not get a Schroeder Ref for review,and went on to assume that this was because of the backlog in orders,and that a review could be taking a chance.While I understand this,and don't know the reasoning,I am fascinated as to what that potential review would be like!

Best regards!