Turntables New vs Used


Thought I would post this as possible food for thought. Have been in this hobby since 1957 and have owned a great many tables both new and used. My first audiophile table was a Dual 1019 and it has evolved from there.

I deal a lot in turntables both new and used, sort of a hobby business. With that in mind in recent years there has been several new tables to hit the market such as those from Music Hall,Project, and so on. Not all but most of the tables in the sub $1,000.00 range are just horrid to say the least. For what one pays in this category,one can find true stellar turntables in the used market.

Used tables from Sota,VPI and Rega will clearly outperform anything from Music Hall, Project and others.

This is not meant to disparage Music Hall or Project or others of the same category. But when one truly looks into what is available in the used market,it becomes readily apparent that the higher end used tables will sonically be superior to the new offerings.

I know for the last few months have had several of the Music Hall and Project tables as well as others come and go through the door.

To be candid there is no black art or voodoo science in turntable design. Physics and Geometry are basic law and are absolute with debate not being possible.

But many of these new tables have seem to have forgotton these basic laws and some of the new tables are pure dreck and I am being kind there.

Turntables from VPI,Sota,Rega,Nottingham,Bluenote,Clearaudio,JA Michell,and Simon Yorke offer tables that firmly place them among the best in the world,with sound engineering principles.

Plus the upgrade path is clearly there for future sonic improvements as materials and science come about.

In addition the price one will pay for one of the used tables make these some of the best bargains for today and tomorrow. However with all things used do make sure of whom you get it from and that you are getting what you pay for.

Don't overlook many of the excellent direct drive used tables from Denon,Kenwood,Yamaha,Technics and others. But do concentrate on thier upper end models forgoing the lower model line up.

All in all the current used market represents far greater value than most of the mass produced new tables.

For instance a Rega P3 is in my opinion is vastly superior to a Music Hall MMF 7 and at less cost, new price to new price. I know I have had both here in recent months. Used the Rega P 3 is a hands down winner in this category.

Both VPI and Sota are easily accessed via phone or e Mail and are most helpful in their product line.

The choice is yours and it is your money.
ferrari
Though I am a great fan of used current and vintage turntables - I have quite a few, DD, belt-drive and idler-wheel drive - and can't argue with the statement "For what one pays in this category,one can find true stellar turntables in the used market", there are many things wrong with the whole premise of this thread. First of all, issues of sound quality aside, Project and Music Hall offer new budget turntables, which the rest have abandoned, including now Rega, which I hear is phasing out the P2 (unless I hear wrong), and the future of audio rests on newbies buying new budget turntables. Those just entering mostly are not DIYers and want new turntables with a guarantee they can rely on: Project and Music Hall fulfill this need. I constantly read about the impending demise of the High End and dwindling numbers of audiophiles, but if we make no effort to induct new members into the audiophile community by offering exciting new budget stars, then we must rely instead on the few surviving and ageing audiophiles, which appears to be happening, as evidenced by more and more expensive exclusive equipment, obviously aimed at a very small portion of the population. We need companies like Project, Music Hall, Rotel and NAD (the list seems to be dwindling, Creek integrateds now sell for $1500 CAD these days!) to sustain interest and appeal to newbies.

But then there is the following statement which no one has challenged: "To be candid there is no black art or voodoo science in turntable design. Physics and Geometry are basic law and are absolute with debate not being possible." Debate not being possible?! This is a strong statement: Clearaudio uses extreme mass and several motors to create high torque and momentum to spin that massive platter, while Nottingham uses low-torque motors. Direct-drive 'tables use a completeley different approach to the problem, as do the idler-wheel drives you omitted. Some believe mass stores energy and this muddies timing, and so design lower-mass turntables which are extremely musical, while some believe high mass overrides speeed instablities and design mass monsters which are again very musical. Some believe acrylic is superior to metal and design musical turntables, while other believe the reverse and design metal turntables which are musical. Some believe in suspensions while others shun them. Some like myself have no faith whatsoever in current speed measurements and rumble figures, while most have complete faith in them. Some believe in rigidity uber alles while others eschew rigidity. Given that ALL these various engineering philosophies can lead to excellent results or questionable results, then the statement "physics and geometry are basic law and are absolute" is meaningless, since we don't know enough about them to be able to come up with AN answer, just different philosophies and approaches for different results, the end results often being achieved by chance without a full understanding of what led to a particular success. Given our state of ignorance (and continuing debate), then indeed record player design is a black art, which often is attributable more to good instincts than a clear understanding of what is going on. This is just like the debate on amplification in the '80s, when some believed all meaningful measurements had been made, all was understood, and all you had to do was design for spectacular measurements. Then, with the re-emergence of tubes as a serious segment of products, which in many cases measured horribly but evidently sounded excellent (while certain pieces which measured spectacularly sounded horrible), this philosphy was abandoned and it was understood that we had no full understanding. Back to the Black Arts, or, good instincts, or chance assemblage of materials, design philosophy, and execution, which is art. Spinning the platter at a steady 33 1/3 has ALWAYS been understood, though more difficult to achieve at a budget.

Occasionally, something comes along which violates everything we think we know (like the RS Labs tonearm, or the Well Tempered turntable when it first came out), and this is part of the excitement of audio, and helps generate interest and, yes, sales. We NEED challenges to the status quo to keep the ball rolling.

Simon Yorke's piece is laudable from many points of view, and I agree with much of it, but it also reads like a justification of high prices and a sales pitch, a mixture of philosophy and public relations. If we were to stick to it to the letter, then there would be no future for serious audio as a hobby, a source of quality reproduction for those who want to spend hundreds of dollars to test the waters (or are tempted into becoming audiophiles in the first place by the entry-level price), as is understandable and sensible, and not thousands of dollars. Simon Yorke's turntables may be the ulitmate aim of many (but not all) audiophiles, but those audiophiles are in most cases inducted into the brotherhood by such companies as Project, while so many companies abandon budding audiophiles and the whole concept of entry-level quality.

Finally, I can't comment on the comparison between the Regas and the Projects or Music Halls, as I haven't heard a Music Hall, or directly compared a Project which I have heard to a Rega, but aside from the fellow who also owns a Rega and so obviously agrees with you, I would at least question your judgment of their relative merits and not blindly accept it: I will do the comparison myself some day and report on it, many are enamoured of both these companies' products, which I remind you again are offering true budget items and so are the hope of serious audio's, specifically vinyl's, future, if it has one.
Ah yes, I am indeed in the presence of great minds. I am most humbled to be insuch esteem company. It is very refreshing to finally find out that 47 years in this hobby is now meaningless and without merit. One has no idea of what a true blessing that is after all this time. Now I can go on with my life and get degrees in something other than applied sciences. After all basic scientific law no longer applies. Perhaps someone on Audiogon can reinvent the wheel? Then reinvent the vinyl disc to go with that wheel.

Perhaps a degree in World Economics. After all the price of eggs in china are at all time high, and may truly not be worth the wear and tear on the hens ass. Yes I can see it now, a possible new quest.

I must forward all of these posts to M.I.T immediatley as applied science as we now know it, has no value. What a genuine break through this is and from the honored and esteemed Audiogon community. Perhaps someone in this post will receive a grant to further the applied sciences, to a newer and elevated level, no one thought possible. A mighty ambition indeed.

But my most heartfelt thanks to the respondents of this post and the Audiogon membership, to have a burden such as this lifted from my now very tired shoulders, is something I could not envision, yes there is a GOD!!

At 62 I will endeavour to get a degree in something else. After all I made a ton of money with the other, just hated to waste those 47 years though. But maybe by 82 I will once again become a valued and worthy member of humanity.

So I leave this thread to those gifted minds of the Audiogon community, my hat is off to you and I am forever humbled by presence of the Audiogon Membership.
Now that's the Palm Beach I remember! People don't agree with you so you throw out sarcastic insults and slink away with your nose held high. It has been my experience working with other engineers such as myself that if you want to study a subject to death, go find an M.I.T grad. If you want to get something done, go find an engineer who graduated just about anywhere else. I often wonder if they teach the same physics at M.I.T. as all the other schools.
Ferrari... dude... this is a discussion forum. You don't get to take offense to somebody disagreeing with you.

Audiophilia like any other hobby is all about opinion and personal choices.

Chill out.
Lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater, Johnanntais makes some telling points. In particular, I agree that budget items are important to draw new enthusiasts into the hobby, whilst we old foggies shuffle off to Gods waiting room. I would'nt agree there are less items available, TT's excepted more new names are coming available, particularly from China. You may have issues in trying to support home industry, but the budget market is expanding with good new products, in ampifiers, CD players, speakers etc. I accept there seem to be no new TT manufacturers, but give the Chinese time. Meanwhile there are reasonable budget decks around. I would still advocate a newcomer to vinyl to go 2nd hand, if only because you reduce loss if you make a mistake and wish to sell quickly.
Moving on to the laws of physics, I am a Doctor not a physicist, but last time I checked the basic laws of physics are immutable, certainly the laws of motion, friction, dynamics etc. I don't think TT designers need to employ String Theory. What you might say is that there are many different ways of applying those laws, high mass/low mass, suspended/rigid etc, but sorry, the laws of physics are pretty much a given.