What cartridge to use....Rega RB25 Structural Mod

Oh bother …

The DL103 is a fine cart for the price – I use one to listen to my old (read very worn) jazz LP’s. However, compared to a Koetsu Red, it can only be described as vulgar, edgy with an exaggerated top end. I have not heard the Shelter 901, but the having lived with both a 501 and DL103 for a while, you would have to be quite deaf not to recognize the 501 as being the more musical of the two.

I am not going to make a comment about your choice of tables other than to say if you used a half decent turntable for your comparisons, you would recognize the shortcoming of the DL103 and RB250/300 in a heartbeat.

Clearly idler wheels suffer from so much noise contamination that the subtleties in the music are lost, and quality cartridges and arms are a waste of time (and money).

Regards
Paul

Ps. As a DIYer myself, I applaud other folks who take the time and effort in this hobby to roll their own. That includes people who resurrect old tables. However, one should avoid the trap of evaluating your own handiwork with those rose tinted glasses.

"Clearly idler wheels suffer from so much noise contamination that the subtleties in the music are lost, and quality cartridges and arms are a waste of time (and money)." I believe that Mr.Sugano first developed the Koetsu on a Garrard Idler Wheel Drive Turntable so he must have thought they were o.k.As regards the Rega bearings,no less a critic than Art Dudley in Stereophile has stated that they are extremely good value for the money.Here is further experience with Rega "I removed the common bearing types from a RB250, 300 and RB1000, the vertical shaft bearing are all the same size. I sent them to a precision bearing distributor and they reported they could not measure or by inspection tell any difference in grade, they all fell into the range of 1P-3P(ABEC Grade), there is some overlap." They are quite adequate and further "Two to four ten thousandths(of an inch)(ABEC Grades Referred to) is a tolerance you cannot feel. Not only that due to the arrangement of the bearings they actually reduce the radial play.
I have had literally hundreds of Rega arms (of all models) in my hands and have never had a single one with excessive play.

"no less a critic than Art Dudley in Stereophile has stated that they [RB 250/300] are extremely good value for the money"

Yes, I agree. That is what I said in my post no? In fact, they are probably the best value for money arms out there. They are however, not very good. (In the same way $200 is a lot less than $3000)

"they all fell into the range of 1P-3P"

Agreed. 1P is the very worst ABEC grade and 3P is the second worst grade. 1P and 3P are not sufficient to reproduce music with any level of accuracy. All you will get is a blunted and smeared mess; which is what the RB250/300 deliver in spades.

BTW - I have not heard the RB1000, but have heard the 600 and 700. I heard the same bluntness and smearing from both. So I have no problem with your statement that 250/300 bearing spec the same as the so called ‘better’ models in the RB range.

"is a tolerance you cannot feel"

Agreed, you cannot feel it but you can most certainly hear it. Personally I listen to music – touching my tone arm does very little for me.

"I have had literally hundreds of Rega arms (of all models) in my hands and have never had a single one with excessive play."

That is a lot of arms to have owned (you must be very wealthy), but since they spec at 1P to 3P they all have excessive play. Your inability to discern that is hardly contrary to the fact.

Regards
Paul

I am not the owner of all those arms,they probably belonged to a whole lot of people.I was actually quoting from Garth's experience with Rega arms who makes the Incognito Rewire Modification,which no doubt you are familiar with.He also states "I doubt a Rega arm would barely move with an ABEC 7P bearing which has a radial play of .0001 to .00015. I rebuilt a RB250 with ABEC 5P bearings and it was tight, very tight....I would say that the quality of tonearm assembly is of even more key importance than the type or tolerance of the bearings used."That is from someone with a lot of experience adjusting and tweaking Rega Arms and their bearings.I might suggest that you heard the Rega arm in less than ideal conditions and I would say that they are much better if tweaked from the "stock" form they are set-up on a Rega table.You would hear "smearing" in spades I am sure.I have seen the official Rega Fixture for the bearing nut and it is totally wrong.Roy Gandy probably has no right to sell his tables set-up in this way.That being said something like the Origin Live silver shows how good this arm can be,very close to a Triplanar 7 as Doug Deacon has stated on this forum.

Stefan

I know who Garth is. Garth sells Rega/OEM arms. He has a lot of experience but nobody lies more than a salesman. I believe that in the industry, lying to the public is known as marketing, no?

My setup is very good and more than adequate to come to an objective conclusion as to which arm is better. (I can send a photos and description off line if you want – email me) Also, I have no reason to like or dislike Rega arms. I am only interested in having good sound – I do not have to sell anything to anybody.

My RB's (I had 3) were all modified with Incognito(2) and Discovery. I loved them till I mounted my Morch – the difference was nothing other than dramatic. Even some arms that are less expensive than a modified RB (Scheu Classic/Bel Canto Unipivot and Graham Robin) are significantly better. Yes, I tried them both and now own a Scheu also. At one time I had two Morch's mounted on my table.

A good friend who is a Rega fan lent me his RB600 to compare against my Morch. It was a joke – the RB was blown out of the water. He now is running a Morch UP4 also.

I think Jeff would be well advised to consider upgrading to an arm like a Morch UP or Hadcock and keeping his Koetsu Red.

Regards
Paul