Like the turntable itself, this topic goes round and round. |
"Like the turntable itself, this topic goes round and round."
Did you buy an SP-10 or a Lenco yet ? If not why not ? :-) |
Dear Zaikesman: +++++ " or illuminate anything about what we hear or which drive method is "best". " +++++
I think that you don't read carefully what I posted about, here it is:
+++++ " Btw, from a pure objective approach the " numbers " are what define which audio device is better not if we can hear those " numbers ". " +++++
Come on!!!!
I respect your opinion but you have a misunderstood about. I'm talking of " numbers " ( objective approach ) in an absolute concept/terms and you ( like always ) are talking in a subjective point of view . Two very differents things.
At least and in an absolute concept/terms of objective approach: " numbers ", we have answers about this thread and with your subjective approach we don't have any.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Raul: I don't want to beat, strangle, shoot, drown, and blow up a dead horse, BUT... > I don't excpect you to be familiar with my collected works on Audiogon, but anyone who's read me around here over the years could tell you that I am hardly a pure subjectivist. I often raise questions concerning what it is audiophiles think they hear, what they prefer, how they arrive at those subjective determintations, and the influence of technical ignorance and psychology. I'm all for whatever degree of objectivity is obtainable or practical.
> I do think measurements are important, for audiophiles both as a check on quality and as information to help us understand what we hear, and of course for product designers they are essential tools of the trade Having said that, I also think numbers can be misleading under several circumstances, such as... > If there is little or no correlelation established between what is being measured and what we can hear
> If there is no test devised capable of measuring some aspect of what we can hear
> If the tests performed omit covering some measureable aspects which probably do correlate with what we can hear
> If a test measures something that bears little useful resemblence to playing music
> If the measurements we are comparing are those claimed by manufacturers under unknown or unverifiable test conditions, not independently obtained using a uniform test procedure
> When tests that measure the wrong thing, or fail to measure the right thing, are misrepresented as the authoritative determinants of performance When it comes to the turntable specs you've listed, there are several pitfalls evident: > These are manufacturer numbers, unverifiable and taken under unknown test conditions which it is reasonable to assume were not always uniform
> Even if all the numbers were valid, they may not be representive of all samples of these products that we might audition or pertain under all real-world conditions
> We do not know whether or to what degree the small differences between the numbers correlate with audible performance
> Numbers for wow, flutter, and rumble do not define the universe of possible quantifiers of turntable performance, they only relate to certain aspects of it
> And in any case, wow & flutter and rumble numbers tell us only about aggregate quantity -- nothing about the actual spectral or temporal qualities of the distortions. So, identical numbers for two different turntables can in fact represent different behavior and therefore possibly sound. You wrote: "From a pure objective approach, the 'numbers' are what define which audio device is better, not if we can hear those 'numbers'." This is a fallacy, for some of the reasons I've listed above, and even if you discount the importance of being able to hear everything that is measureable. If you believe that measurements always objectively define what is better, then you simply don't know enough about the numbers, what they mean or might mean, and what they don't mean or might not mean. As the movie said, "A man's got to know his limitations", and that goes for a man's numbers too. |
Dear Sean: +++++ " I truly believe in measurements and a scientific approach to audio, but often the most difficult thing is knowing exactly what to measure. " +++++
I agree with you.
Btw, in the TT subject and from the objective approach it is a fact that we can only " work " with the " numbers " that are on hand: there are no others!!!!...
Now, there is no single approach that is right: objective or subjective, we have to take from both and bring the best for each one to our priorities.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
