Dear Julian Hersch,I mean Nsgarsh.....I'm not so sure it really is such a "B F Deal",as you put it.
That is my point!AND believe me,I hope the Orpheus blows away my Temper-V.I will certainly get it immediately,if that happens.BTW,don't be so quick to dismiss the Univ,or some of the other designs,for "features sake".I have heard quite a few of these,and could easily live with them.With a smile on my face.To be honest,the Univ(though it has been talked about "ad Nauseum")is everything stated about it,based on my few hrs spent with it.The Dynavector is almost perfect,to me,with the Titan coming close,and the Myabi is fabulous,too,but a bit romantic.YMMV.All this is only my opinion anyway,which means "nada"!
Do you know for sure,if the "O" Has a much more refined coil "Schtick" as opposed to the Temper-V?
It is also no stretch to see how the Mfgr decided to increase the output a "smidgen",change the body(same material),and go from the Temper's 3.0 ohm resistence to the new,and not so much better 2.5 ohms.Then you have the 1.5 grm increase in weight,and a price increase of 1500 dollars.There's not alot "there".But I did not design it,so maybe I'm being too sceptical.I think my approach is healthy.
Of course,I hope it comes out way ahead of what I already have,but I don't think my way of looking at this(before I decide to invest,and I am "really" ready here)is out of line.It's my money on the line!!Money I will be happy to spend for a real improvement.NOT specs,on paper!!
BTW,when I do set up my friend's "O",I will be completely open minded,and just let the product speak for itself.Besides There will be other ,very experienced hobbyists there.
Let's hope the supply opens up soon,so I can find out,and I will be honest in "our" opinions!
Best!
Mark |
Mark, your response indicates a slightly different understanding from mine.
Once again, I have no reason to diss those other great cartridges;--) However, in terms of further design innovation or performance improvement, I see nowhere for them to go.
The following comment (of yours) is why I get the feeling that you're just not pickin' up what I'm puttin' down, as they say:
"Do you know for sure,if the "O" Has a much more refined coil "Schtick" as opposed to the Temper-V?
It is also no stretch to see how the Mfgr decided to increase the output a "smidgen",change the body(same material),and go from the Temper's 3.0 ohm resistence to the new,and not so much better 2.5 ohms."
OK, first of all, I don't think the mfgr simply DECIDED (i.e. as part of some marketing plan) to bring out the Orpheus. Nor do I think they just DECIDED to increase the output a "smidgen" or reduce the coil weight by 20% while increasing output 25% over the previous model. You can't just DECIDE such things, wave your magic tonearm, and have them come to pass!
What they did, they were able to do because of what they learned from making the V and the W; Obviously, they have to respect electromagnetic laws just like any other cart. mfgr. So if you want more output with fewer coil windings, there's only one way: get a stronger magnet (with a more focused flux field, if possible) In the Orpheus, the ring magnet's size/strength has obviously been increased enough to achieve respectably modest output using a coil which, in other (conventional) cartridges, would produce just a low output (around .2 - .3 mV)
The Orpheus combines the (I assume better) tracking and transients of the V, with the healthier output of the W -- and makes it unnecessary to offer two versions of the Orpheus. And I don't believe this was all the result of some marketing "decision" -- where they already had the technology in place. No no. I think once the W and V were in production, they realized how close their specs actually are, and started looking to see if there was a way to make the W's coil lighter, and the V's output higher, and then combine it all in a single cartridge. Answer? Bigger magnet.
Now, to address an obvious question: So why doesn't using a bigger magnet work to improve the conventional yoke designs?
Answer: Because no matter how much stronger the magnet, the flux field itself (in the gap between the poles where the coil sits) is only useful just where the coil is immersed in it, the rest is wasted. That's why the folks at Dynavector have gone to extraordinary lengths using multiple Alnicos, "flux shaping" coils on the front poles, and a "shaped aperature" on the XV-1s front pole, all in an attempt to focus the flux field on the coils. But it's still a low output cartridge ;--)
In the Transfiguration ring magnet design, they've basically set the coil down into cylinder-shaped magnet with a hole just big enough to receive the coil without it touching the sides of the cylinder. With the suspension rubber on the bottom of the can and the cantilever sticking out the open end, the coil is literally immersed in a magnetic flux that's totaly concentrated on the coil. This arrangement also solves eddy current problems, etc. and I'll bet the magnetic "can" helps to shield the coil from RFI/EMI too ;--)
I guess what I'm trying to express is that the introduction of the Orpheus wasn't just some "planned obsolesence" marketing strategy -- any more than when ZYX brought out the UNIverse so soon after the Airy 3. They just discovered a way to do something better and said, "Why not?" Don't we wish more manufacturers felt that way?
. |
The real reason for the increased output vs. impedance is a new core material (around which the coils are wound). This material was introduced by MySonic Labs' Matsudaira (formerly of Audiocraft) on his Eminent cartridges from a few years back.
One of Ortofon's newer SPU series (which I believe was also designed at least partly by Matsudaira) shares the same core material, and has similar output voltage vs. specs (something like 0.5mV with an internal impedance of 2ohms).
I believe that MySonic Labs shares a builder-craftsman with Immutable, hence the transfer of core materials.
Although the Eminent is highly regarded in Japan, production is very limited, so it may not be well-known in other countries yet.
Incidentally, both the Eminent and new SPU model use a traditional "Ortofon-style" magnetic circuit (with polepieces aka yokes and all), so it is doubtful if the choice of magnetic circuit has much to do with the increased output efficiency.
IOW, give ZYX or other cartridges the same core material and chances are that you'd get similar increases in output vs. impedance efficiency without much redesign effort required at all.
hth, jcarr |
Jcarr -- with all due respect, I think you have it all backwards ;--( Here's some technical background for your edification. BTW, the new core material only helps improve the signal to noise ratio, it doesn't increase the output:
The moving coil cartridge has become to be accepted internationally as the ultimate transducer of these and other fine analog recordings. However, despite increasingly sophisticated cartridges being developed there remains a number of aspects that place a ceiling on the quality of the reproduction: the prime cause being the yokes and pole-pieces of the magnet, which focus the field around the coil. The yoke system is unable to focus the full power of the magnet into the coil affecting both the strength and the accuracy of the signal. The resulting distortion inherent in most moving coil designs shows as a high frequency rise, ringing and a high level of both distortion and tracking distortion. There is also a masking of the frequency response, especially in the high range. The inter-relationship of magnetic field and coils is simply too "loose". The magnet and coils are too far apart to be able to capture the very subtlest details. On the other hand, very dynamic passages tend to cause coil saturation, especially if the coils are wound on formers. Increasingly powerful magnets, or special coils, bodies and suspensions, are in themselves no solution.
"Accuracy" defines precisely the ability of a cartridge to recreate the original recorded sound. Greater accuracy provides more of the music - the direct sound, and the myriad of recording environment subtleties that are the intimate detail. Ultimately, a more musical sound. Indeed, it seemed the ultimate moving coil design was already with us. Only to be continuously re-refined.
Design Concept
Now, in these final days of the glories of analog, there is a whole new frontier to the music of recorded music. The great complexity and crudeness of magnetic fields, yokes and coils is replaced by a new concept. The vast and costly magnets, magnetic-field-dispersing yokes and coils suffering variable magnetic influences of all other moving coil designs are replaced by a single assembly.
No yokes
Coils inside the magnet
No magnetic irregularities
Coils at the crux of magnetic focus
Intimate coil/magnet coupling
Low internal impedance
High output
Elegantly simple body design
Technical Features:
Unique ultra grade SS-µ-metal core for coil assembly. Newly developed ultra grade SS-µ-metal square core increases sensitivity by 35dB, improving the signal to noise ratio and eliminating a usual source of distortion.
Special 7N copper coils. A newly developed 7N copper wire used in the coils eliminates a common source of distortion and increases transparency.
Push-pull damping. A special quality compound has been meticulously designed and fabricated to provide total stylus/coil alignment and control. Its non-sensitivity to temperature change keeps the damping co-efficient stable and improves trackability.
Anti-resonance cartridge body shape. A resonance controlled 'simple' design for lower tonal colouration and a new-generation image.
Boron cantilever. Newly developed rod for a more natural sound.
Low mass tip. Ogura PA (3 x 30µm) tip. Its function is to reproduce the character of the original recorded sound - not add or subtract its own deficiencies.
Ultra tight magnet-coil coupling. The coils are not just close but literally right inside, with coil-magnet proximity of only a few thousandths of an inch. With the precision magnetic field focusing possible only with a ring magnet and superbly accurately wound coils, the ultra tight magnet-coil coupling enables far greater electromagnetic efficiency.
Dynamic mass minimized and coil saturation eliminated. Much faster, more accurate stylus response to groove formation. Rising dynamics or sharp transients never mask detail.
Twin coils on cantilever fulcrum. Ultra low dynamic mass and mechanical impedance for instant, accurate reaction to every groove detail, including the ability to handle massive transients without overshoot or break-up.
excerpted from Elusive Disc:
http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=TRANORP |
Nsgarsh,firstly,you know I love ya,so don't take me too seriously.
Anyway,alot of your comments,admittedly,are based on conjecture,and from my years in the hobby,I have seen LOADS of "advanced" products sink,like the Titanic.
I have NO doubts that the Orpheus will be a fine performer,but am not convinced it will "meaningfully" outperform the competition,until I hear it.Been down this road,alot!
Let's face it,I am the one who turned my friend on to it,and would not really expect him to spend his cash,if I did not think he would benefit from it.
Also,I AM absolutely ready to try to obtain a unit,and have already spoken with a fine dealer,about this.Should it "clearly" outperform the Temper-V!
I STILL stand by my scepticism,and will be happy to let it pass,if the "O" passes the test.In reality,not on paper.
Please don't take my comments as any sort of a "diss".You know this is all fun,anyway,and I have not had too much of a good time,in the last month,so I need to Pick on You a bit -:)...You can handle it anyway,as you are armed with knowledge.
Best! |
