Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot II


“For those who want the moon but can't afford it or those who can afford it but like to have fun and work with their hands, I'm willing to give out a recipe for a true high-end 'table which is easy to do, and fun to make as sky's the limit on design/creativity! The cost of materials, including 'table, is roughly $200 (depending, more or less), and add to that a Rega tonearm. The results are astonishing. I'll even tell/show you how to make chipboard look like marble and fool and impress all your friends. If there's interest I'll get on with this project, if not, I'll just continue making them in my basement. The next one I make will have a Corian top and have a zebra stripe pattern! Fun! Any takers?”

The Lead in “Da Thread” as posted by Johnnantais - 2-01-04

Let the saga continue. Sail on, oh ships of Lenco!
mario_b
Jean, What about the Denon DP80 and the earlier DP6000? One can defeat their speed correction mechanism easily and try them both ways. Plus I think they compete with any that you mentioned as regards quality of construction and thoughtful design. (The DP80 has the DP100 type split platter to isolate platter from motor.) But would any of these tables run at anywhere near a stable and correct speed without the correction systems they employ? I dunno but don't think so.
Jean - I have been itching to ask a question regarding tonearms.

As I still sometimes read the old thread (dull afternoons at work) your raves about certain older tonearms remain fresh in my mind.

Now that you have the Dynavector and the RS-A1 to sport your Denon, are you still using the likes of the MAS, 1005II, Mayware, etc.? What about MM in general?

Nervous in high compliance-ville,

Mike
Hi all!! Starting with Mario, you're most welcome, your work is always an inspiration in dedication! A lot of DIYers should have a gander and think about the satisfaction of a project well done. I've discovered that in woodwork patience and care - not professional experience - is the Prime Ingredient. Measure twice and cut once as they say. I absolutely LOVE to hear about budget Giant-Killer systems, especially using vintage components! Though my own sytem is made up entirely of such items (excepting currently my tonearms and cartridges), I STILL have hankering to pull out my AR2ax's and play with them, and my Yamaha 625's, and so forth, and have some fun.

While on the subject of vintage tonearms, hey Mike! No, I haven't abandoned either vintage tonearms or MMs, having been busy lately conquering my area with the Decca: there's now a Decca Revival going on in Ottawa thanks to a combination of the Mighty Giant Direct Coupled Glass-Reinforced Lenco/Graham 2.2 Ceramic combo. Last I heard, the Decca has displaced both an upper end Benz Micro MC AND a Koetsu Platinum Something-or-Other. I've also been experimenting with an incredible and Final-Type match-up: the combination of the Rega RB-250 with the Grado cartridges, including the Woodies. Now I've often been on record speaking for the RB-300 as opposed to the much-hyped RB-250 (OL etc.), but this is in the case of MCs, with which the RB-300 extracts much more refined and "complete" results. But with an MM, ESPECIALLY the Grados, the RB-250 yields truly State of the Art astonishing results, so much so I bought myself a RB-250 for my own Woody. I made the discovery initially when setting up a Lenco for a friend on a budget. He bought an RB-250 to keep costs down, and I talked him into a Grado Platinum as a Final Cartridge. I was frankly stunned by the results, his system now counting amongst the best I've heard anywhere in the world (using old and stunning JSE Infinite Slope speakers, a Superphon Dual Mono Revelation preamp, and a couple of 20-watt ASL tube monoblocks). Now lately, I mounted my RB-250 to the Technics SP-25 in heavy plinth (Direct Coupled) and mounted my Grado 8MX to that, and am again stunned by the results.

And more ahead, as I bought an NOS Audio Technica ATP-12, which is, in terms of build quality/engineering, superior to the AT-1005 MKII. Can't wait to try it out. I am about to mount my Black Widow to my new Reference Lenco (I've improved things some more by more extreme application of certain principles) to show what this baby can REALLY do. One thing about this ultra-low-mass tonearm: a cartridge on this tracks the most severe warps as if they didn't exist. Plus, I've never heard one on one of my Giant babies, let alone my new "Ultra Lenco" (and I've not yet applied these principles to Reinderspeter's top-plate...we're entering realms of music reproduction which border on a violation of the Laws of Physics!!).

Though my Reference tonearm/cartridge combo is now the JMW 10.5/Ortofon Jubilee (though not budget, for the price this combo still ranks as a Giant Killer and stunning value, as they are both "reasonably" priced at roughly $2K each), I was frankly stunned at the results I got from the classic AKG P8ES on the JMW, which may in fact have outperformed the Decca...I'll have to get back to this cartridge and see what more I can extract from it. I HIGHLY recommend the AKG as a State of the Art Contender, no need for caveats in any area. I also clearly remember the stunning results I got from my Transcriptors Vestigal tonearm, likely the lowest-mass tonearm ever made (and WEIRD and so FUN), which extracted SUCH detail and transients from my Grado Woody it matched the best MCs I've heard. Finally, in my Fun Bag, is the Decca International Heavy Metal version I have, which might displace even the JMW 10.5! We'll see.

A note on the highly-underrated (despite a stream of rave reviews) and misunderstood JMW tonearms (especially the 10.5 and above): these tonearms "humanize" otherwise cerebral MCs (which normally cannot match MMs for gestalt, PraT and overall exhuberance/musicality) and so bring them much closer to MMs in overall sonic characteristics. I've heard the Lenco/JMW in many systems, with always the same results: an utter naturalness allied to state of the art detail and imaging, and perfectly even tonal balance, from the lowest lows to the highest highs. I believe it's due to a combination of the unipivot design and very high overall mass, which ups the gestalt of the normally analytical/dissective character of most MCs.

And finally Lew, those sound like fabulous machines, I've heard a lot about the better Denons, but haven't yet managed to get my hands on one. As to speed stability, since there is no such thing as perfection in this world, then it is not so much the overall speed stability which matters as the TYPE of speed instabilities which matter. Take quartz-locking: with a given speed stability measurement (averaged in such a way as to make the figures look very impressive) their speed stability figures outdo many much better designs, as I've discovered. But the quartz-locking is causing a sort of go-brake-go-brake-go-brake which disappears when averaged out over a certain time period/frequency, but to which the human ear is EXTREMELY sensitive. Using the same measurement test, another DD (of course servo-controlled) yields much inferior results, but sounds MUCH more stable in terms of overall gestalt, transients and dynamics (i.e. these are not mitigated as they are with quartz-locking). So perhaps the servo-controlled system at a certain frequency/time sampling is vastly inferior, but perhaps at a smaller sampling frequency the speed stability is vastly superior (i.e. averaged over one thoudsandth of a second to the next one-thousandths of a second the Quartz is superior, but perhaps at the pico-second to the next pico second level the servo is MUCH superior, yielding a more liquid/musical result). With respect to simply removing ALL correction circuitry from existing DDs you're right, the results would likely be disastrous. A DD would have to be designed from the ground up to operate on simple momentum. When removing the platter of my Sony, for example, one can see the motor/spindle of the 'table go, in quarter-turns, revolve-STOP-revolve-STOP. But, mount the platter and this HUGE cogging simply disappears. This demonstrates that the platter mass is calculated into the final result, and a DD designed with no correction whatsoever would also have to be so designed, to work without electronic speed stability tricks, which many audiophiles mistake, it being a matter of wondrous computing technology, as big PLUS, when in fact the correction circuitry is a big bandaid to cover up a great LIABILITY, i.e. the extremely slow revolution of DDs, as is necessarily so (33 1/3 for 33 1/3 and 45 for 45, as opposed to 1800 RPM for Idlers), which magnifies any imperfections hugely (the faster a motor revolves, the more simple momentum "papers" over the speed instabilities).

Anyway, more fun'n games ahead for me and evidently for you all, have fun all!!
I tried to verify this via the internet but could not find the relevant information plainly stated. However, is it not the case that Quartz-control is a subset of servo control? IOW, quartz control is a servo using a quartz-based oscillator as a reference. If true, it would be of interest to know the reference used in the servo-controlled tt you are enjoying.
Hi Lew, no, the issue as far as I understand it and understood back in the day was that servo-control is reactive, meaning that it reacts to deviation from absolute speed stability (whatever tolerance) and corrects, thus bringing with it an endless hunk-and-seek as it never achieves perfect speed stability (this was the argument anyway, as experience shows the system had its advantages ;-)). The advantage of quartz-locking was that it was not reactive, the quartz "signal" being the independent Reference, and so divorced from the antics caused by stylus force drag, and not reactive. I notice that in this respect, the Technics SP-10 MKII has lots of torque, so stylus force drag or not an issue (but, the quartz-locking reference is itself a problem, as it is audible), and the quartz-locking itself thus more effective (i.e. a true reference signal).