Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot II

Ah well,
Can't have too many Carts. I did, however, finally pick up the right Pickering V-15 (625e) with new stylus that you mentioned on the old thread. While I enjoy the "tubey" sound, it's such light tracker (.75 - 1.4 grams) that I'll have to dedicate some future turntable project with maybe a wall mount for it.

Now that V15-Vxmr is, in fact, my fave. Purchased it new at list back when the window was just beginning to close on it at Shure. It's does the full MM extravaganza without calling attention to itself - "The Big Natural in Neutral".
This in opposition to the Pickering V-15 which does call attention to itself, albiet in an folksy, vintage type sound. Recently pulled the Vxmr out of circulation (it's about at half-life) to rotate in a few other carts.
When the Vxmr stylus has worn itself out, my plan is to have it retipped - there are some reasonably priced retip services across the Atlantic in the mother country.

Looking ahead to future idler builds, I've got two Lencos and two Metzner Starlights that that have been calling to me like hungry children. I'll probably keep it feasible and plan to do one of each this building season.
Both Metzners suffer from a material design flaw. Because of the extreme torque at the spindles, the platter sleeves have "egged out" and exhibit unacceptable platter wobble. The sleeves were of an alloy not quite up to the task over the long haul. You may remember that the Metzners have a unique drive system - no bearing per se - but direct spindle drive with a scored all metal idler, driving a rubber puck in metal frame and up to the 6 lb. platter spinning in true 16-80 rpm variable speed. The 50s era Japanese motors (made from US military surplus steel - thanks to the Marshall plan, no doubt) are 4-pole inductors that appear to be bigger cranks than the Lenco motor, but just as quite, if not more so. So there's potential... An Auto Speed shop for high performance grade valve sleeves, custom machined and pressed into the Metzner platters is the next step.
Enjoy your idleness!
- Mario

Hi Mario, haven't yet tripped over any Metzners, but am definitely on the lookout for one, if only for their bizarreness. I still have to get off my ass and get started on the Rek-o-kut Rondine I have, which, as I wrote a while back, sounded utterly superb in mono, where there is no rumble (rumble is not picked up in true mono), in fact, SO superb in mono that it reminded me of nothing less than the fully restored and set-up EMT 930 I heard back on Cyprus this past summer. For those who have an inherent fear of rumble with these old machines, get yourselves a true mono cartridge and set-up and find some true mono recordings to listen to: they sound astonishingly good, even the 78s, when played through a real system. I heard mine via tubed elctronics and a single Quad ESL57. As high end as I've ever heard, made me wonder - once again ;-) - about the Marketing Myth of Progress. In fact, I should get into the workshop and get started right away, and work on setting up a true mono system!

But, busy up here with yet further Lenco experiments, including the steel Reinderspeter top-plate I am now about to start on. Not that "ordinary" Giant Direct Coupled Lencos leave anyone wanting. The fellow who received both a rebuilt Lenco and a rebuilt Garrard 401 from me, the former with a Dynavector 507 MKII/Dynavector 17D MKIII and the latter with a SME V/Dynavector XX-1 re-tipped by VdH, reports he hasn't returned to the Garrard yet after setting up the Lenco, which he received after the Garrard. And lest we forget, the Giant Direct Coupling recipe works as well for any idler as it does for the Lenco, forget about Mystical Synergies, it's just about maximizing and proper set-up.

Just as a reminder, here's what one fellow sent me when he received a Giant Direct Coupled Garrard 301 from me: "Well, got the stock i/c on the Dyna, and not all tweaked yet, and nothing sitting on stand, without isolation, and it betters the Verdier/Koetu Urishi on a special Isolation stand...I am candidly surprised. I did not expect this. I had the the Cain and Cain plinth and it did not sound good. This is way above. The 301 is incredible in your plinth. It has only the inexpensive Denon 103 R and that is not redone yet...and only a stock cable and it is better by a long ways than the Verdier on a special isolation table. Next I will try the Koetsu in the arm....and in my best phono stage and see. Damn...don’t let this get out, or it will ruin the high end."

There's still resistance to the idea of Lenco as a true high-end 'table (more from Garrard-ers than anyone else, sadly), not to mention resistance to the idea of idlers as true high-end 'tables, despite the HUGE increase in interest and sales of these machines, HUGE increase in reporting on these machines in the hi-fi press, and their re-appearance on the market!! Prejudice is a tough one to beat. I STILL read that old politically-correct canard (not as in duck ;-)) that all drive systems are equal, it's only implementation that counts. Rubbish. Engineering is about engineering to a price, and if it takes a $50K belt-drive to match a $5K idler-wheel drive (and I mean in every audiophile area, not just SLAM and bass and rhythm and transients), assuming a $50K belt-drive can even match a properly set-up idler-wheel drive, then the issue is settled and the idler-wheel drive is quite simply superior. For a belt-drive to match the torque of an idler with an 8-pound platter, let's say it takes a 75-pound platter, to make the equivalent torque with momentum, which requires all sorts of expensive precision manufacturing and materials. Then it takes a very expensive and solid bearing to bear the weight and friction, assuming a bearing can be made which will not seriously wear out in just a few years. Then it takes a structure capable of supporting this massive weight, and so on. The belt-drive is not a practical system (not that it doesn't sound good at budget prices, like the great Thorenses and ARs, etc.), which is why they have hit $100K and beyond, with still improvements reported at each price point!! Or, simply buy a 'table with a high torque system with no slippage or stretching (why, an idler of course), a powerful motor which does not lose speed when faced with Stylus Force Drag, and sufficient weight on the flywheel-platter (Lenco springs to mind) to create a closed system - motor drives platter, platter smooths out motor - which utterly ignores stylus force drag, does not require vast amounts of material or unnecessary expense, and achieves the same thing, more reliably, at a much lower price-point, than an equaivalent belt-drive, assuming a belt-drive exists which can outperform a properly set-up idler-wheel drive.

Direct Drive is also undergoing a resurgence of interest due to the idler-driven topic of speed stability, and also because DD motors are still available on the market. But, due to the extreme slowness of the rotation (literally 33 1/3 RPM for 33 1/3 LPs, and 45 RPM for 45s, as opposed to roughly 300 RPM for belt-drives and 1800 RPM for idler motors which iron out speed imperfections), they require expensive controlling systems and engineering to counteract the magnification of speed imperfections, all physical systems being to some extent imperfect (but the faster the motor spins, the more these imperfections are ironed out). People make the mistake that the consequent high technology in DDs is a big plus (computational power as a selling feature), when in fact this high technology is required by the Great DD Liability, which is magnified speed imperfections caused by the extremely slow rotation. Not that DDs cannot be made to be extremely good, in fact better than belt-drives according to these ears (especially servo-controlled DDs so far), but, as with belt-drives, it is perhaps true that DDs can only be made to match idler-wheel drives by increased expense, which means that according to the principle of engineering to a price point, idler is still the superior system.

Those with experience know that noise/rumble is not an issue with idler-wheel drives when properly set-up, a lingering bit of misinformation from the Bad Old Days of the Hegemony of the Belt, those same belt-drivers now saying that all systems are equal and it comes down just to proper implementation....yeah, and the combustion engine is not superior to the steam engine, it just comes down to proper implerementation, as in a 100-ton machine (locomotive) to match a half-ton machine....but the steam locomotive will not stop on a dime, or accelerate in a matter of seconds.

Anyway, DD experiments will continue in my workshop, the Lenco will be taken to The Max via the Reinderspeter top-plate and reported on, and I hope to delve into the mysteries of the fabulous Rek-o-Kuts!! Have fun all!!!

Johnnantais
I look forward to seeing you tackle the Rok o Kut. I love mine and I am not yet completely finished. I do caution you as you stated that you have a metal drive spindle on the motor. I don't think they are on your rondine. They look it until one takes a really close look. They are phenolic and need very carefull handling or they will make a lot of noise....ooops.. yes I recked one before i knew.
Thanks for all of your contribution and of coarse... viva la idler!

Thanks for that Fordmod, and good luck in finishing your Rek-o-Kut project!!

And now for a Tale of Idler Rumble. A while back I delivered both a Giant Direct Coupled Garrard 401 and a Giant Direct Coupled Glass-Reinforced Lenco (GDCGRL...say that ten times fast!!) to the same fellow, who after hearing one of my GDCGRL for only twenty minutes agreed to trade his Anniversary-edition Oracle Delphi MKIV (black and gold) against the deal. He had subwoofers set up in the corner of a rather large listening room, and a flimsy Target shelf for the unsuspended 'tables right between them, and close. As background, I advised him, as I do all who receive Lencos or other idlers from me, that the best platform I have found is stone bonded to acrylic or Corian, acrylic being on top. This is because stone will not flex and so is much less likely to transmit furniture-created rumble (low-frequency vibration of the sort familiar to other unsuspended decks, like Regas), and acrylic makes it all sound more natural, and damps the stone's ringing, being a CLD sandwich. This has the result of eliminating low-frequency feedback, and of focusing the idler's great strengths, which actually are everything and everywhere, but especially, against a background of belt-drives, transient speed, SLAM, limitless and tight and detailed bass information, incredible timing.

Now, bolting or Direct Coupling an idler, already extremely powerful in the bass, to a large inert mass, creates limitless bass reach, detail and speed (Direct Coupling even more so), which in turn means that any rumble, whatever the origin, will be picked up and amplified. The Garrard/SME V/Dyna XX-1 on the Target shelf was fed into a fully-tubed phono stage (Audio Space), which was, to boot, microphonic. Immediately the first record was played, unacceptable levels of rumble were heard, and so I advised him to simply sit the Garrard on the floor. Much better, but now the opening grooves on each LP - which are distorted by the process of spreading the vinyl outwards in the pressing, meaning the outer edges/opening grooves are distorted in the cooling/hardening vinyl - caused a low-frequency feedback loop which overloaded the phono stage and drove it into oscillation. Plus, there was some rumble/noise still being heard at low levels. So we found some sound-deadening blocks and stuck one under each of the three carriage-bolt feet. Noise now gone, the oscillation yet remained, and we inserted a solid-state phono stage, noise now greatly diminished, vanishingly so. So things stood until I delivered the Lenco.

The fellow didn't want to spring immediately for a stone platform, so we compromised: I built him a new shelf made from my usual recipe of birch-ply and MDF, which we plopped down into the Target stand, and he ordered an acrylic slab. We set up the Lenco on that, no acrylic slab yet, and heard some rumble/noise, and some of that old feedback oscillation in the opening grooves (tubed phono stage back, but with new, less microphonic tubes now). We put the sound-deadening blocks in, which eliminated the noise, but which to my ears also eliminated much of the Lenco power, magic, speed and bass impact. But, he was very happy (remember he had a high-end belt-drive before ;-)), and I left it at that for now, yet still dissatisfied.

Eventually he sent me news of his acrylic slab being ready, and I went over to glue it (using 3M spray adhesive which doesn't react with rubber platter mats either). We first went about finding the best combination of phono stage without the acrylic slab, and settled on the John Curl-designed Sota active step-up fed into the MM section of the tubed phono stage as having the best balance of musicality (much more musical than the solid state phono stage) and silence (MC stage too noisy with no appreciable increase of musicality). Now it was starting to sound good.

We bonded the acrylic to the Birch/MDF platform, and set up the Lenco on that, this time without the sound-deadening blocks. ALL rumble and noise was now completely gone, regardless of volume (and we were playing LOUD), and the improvement in sound quality was truly shocking. NOW the Lenco was indeed Mighty, with that familar sense of untapped yet ever-present limitless power (and the comparison to the Amazon in full flow is still the best description of the Lenco sound so far), and incredible delicacy, SLAM, limitless duynamics, air, imaging, transient speed with decaying notes fully recovered and atmospheric, and incredible bass detail and information which is, quite simply, inaudible and not present on belt-drives. In this extremely hig-end system, the sonic results were quite simnply awesome and overpowering, the same sound which easily outperformed a fully updated $11K EMT 930 idler wheel drive back on Cyprus.

Which is to say, that properly set-up idlers do not rumble inherently, regardless of the low-frequency levels reacheable by any system, subwoodfers or not. What is happening is that the idlers' abilities to delve extremely deeply in the bass (due to the vastly-superior torque and speed stability in the face of problematic stylus force drag) means that any low frequency noise is picked up, amplified, and often causes a feedback loop which endlessly cycles and re-amplifies the noise. Of course, the idlers themselves must be meticulously set-up and restored in order to remove any possible sources of noise. Direct Coupling lowers the noise floor yet more to astonishing levels of quietness (while increasing every audiophile aspect from detail retrieval through imaging to bass information), and finally, setting up on a non-flexing suitably damped platform (which means extremly lightly damped, like gluing acrylic to stone to deaden ringing but not introduce energy-killing/sucking phenomena) eliminates all noise which "excavating" the idlers' abilities in all audiophile areas, especially transient speed, focus, SLAM, bass and timing/rhythm (Pace, Rhythm and timing, PRaT).

Finally, the recipient, extremely difficult (when I delivered the Lenco and Garrard he set up a lab with scopes to measure noise and performance before he would insert them in his system, and he is EXTREMELY sparing with compliments or positive reports) now utterly convinced, bought a granite slab within a couple of days, and has sent me the following e-mail: "Can't believe what a slab of granite will do. Great improvement on the bass .....you can hear each note clearly..........better focus on the mid ...........and the little edginess in the high is gone too. Best $60 I spent in many years!!" Now, to highlight just how serious about audio this fellow is, he is planning on buying a $100K preamp for his system, has been an audio distributor (the second to favour properly set-up idler-wheel drives, specifically Lencos, as opposed to high-end belt-drives), and is going into manufacturing of tubed electronics (also the second manufacturer of tubed electronics to be seduced by the Mighty Lenco, the other being Roger Hebert of Wyetech fame).

Anyway, consider a CLD slab of acrylic bonded to stone as practically mandatory in order to get the most out of your respective idler-wheel drives all, and enjoy the sound of your Mighty Idlers!!

Yo from the Great Northwest!
Please click on my system to see my latest Lenco beauties.
This thread has been one of the best public, worldwide services. The mighty Lenco has kept me at home, indoors and off the streets.

Another Lenco Crazy