Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot II

Hi Lew, no I haven't heard a Shindo platter on a Giant Garrard, but I have access to a good machinist who should be able to replicate the Garrard platter with some modifications (heavier metal, larger diameter, etc.) and perform the experiment myself. In fact, this opens up a whole new world of possibilities, as the Sony 2250's main weakness is also its light platter (but with DDs one cannot increase the mass much as it will interfere with the rotation, which is closely calculated...but the Sony platter has other design features which could use improvement). I'll be visiting him soon to see what can be done.

Problem with the Garrard and the whole issue of torque vs inertia, is that it takes a much greater increase in mass, I believe, to compensate for an increase in torque (say three-to-one) and so eliminate the motor's contribution/contamination of the sound. Of course I haven't performed the calculations, which in anycase I wouldn't know how to do, but I am suddenly looking forward to the experiment!! But, Hxt1 has a point: why go to the trouble when you can buy a Lenco :-)?? Anyway, I'll look into it.

On The Budget Discovery Front, I've been experimenting with various budget SET tube amps in an effort to reinsert my fave Klipsch Heresy MKIs (so extremely detailed, a fact which, to my puzzlement, is not reported) into my sound-room, they sounding much too bright and bass-shy using my usual Sony electronics (which, however, with every other speaker sounds tubier than even tubes, go figure). Though a pair of cheapie Radii SETs did indeed swing and were incredible fun, reminiscent in this way of the legendary budget ASL Wave 8 monoblocks - they did not produce any bass to speak of, unlike the astonishing Wave 8s, which in fact produced only half the output of the SET Radii (but twice the fun)!! Then I tried a budget Consonance SET, the stereo Cyber-10, which though rated for the same power (roughly 13 watts) sounded much more powerful and with deeper bass. But the bass was indistinct and lacked impact, when my Spidey-sense began to tingle.

Long ago I had reported on just how surprisingly good the little and much-maligned Dynaco ST-120 sounded (possibly the first solid state amp put on the market), once restored and adjusted by a competent technician. Now the Dynacos are maligned partly because they were sold as kits as well as factory-made, and the kit-built ones often had problems (sloppily built, tending to blow up), which would be assumed by the next buyer, to become part of the ST-120 reputation. The other part of the euqation is that due to their design, they are very speaker sensitive. Now I've found that many of these early solid state designs sound in fact very tubey (like the vintage Sony and Marantz, for instance), which makes sense as back in that day tubes were the reference/context, and the circuit designs started from tube circuit designs. Anyway, I thought to myself, what if the Dynaco - which so far sounded a bit too analytical for my taste so far with other speakewrs (but surprisingly delicate and resolving, making them still a steal at the resale price, itself predicated on their bad reputation...but remember, when I started the Hope Despot thread the Lencos were also considered the Worst Turntable in the World, just the the ST-120 is considered The Worst Amplifier iun the World) - works with the Klipsch?? I hooked it up and was greeted by Ultra Musical slam, bass and detail!! WHAT fun, NOW I have my new Reference system, which is the rebuilt Dynaco ST-120/Klipsch Heresy speakers, which has headroom in spades (the Dynaco weakness, except with the ultra sensitive Klipsches and their like), deep tight bass, and rocks so as to make dancing an Imperative, without a hint of brightness or that analytical sound!! Haven't boogied around the house like that in ages!! Of course, both the Dynaco ST-120 and the Heresies can be had for a song (so to speak), and so this represents an incredible example of the High End on a budget. Plus, being Klipsches, live recordings now sound MUCH more live than they did before!!

In my search for the perfect balance in my sound room during these comparisons as well, I removed the JMW/Decca combo and inseerted instead the MAS 282/Grado Woody combo, and was greeted with that familiar irresistable musicality, PRaT (superior to the Decca in this sense) and a sense of musical excitement I haven't heard in ages (as opposed to audio/hi-fi excitement), reminding me of why I have often written that the Grados are, overall, my favourite cartridges. It is also responsible for my dance routine this morning!! Now the Grados are not the equal of the Decca in terms of transient speed and slam, or resolution (the Deccas are EXTREMELY resolving), BUT, somehow, as one adjusts to the new context, the Grado begins to pull the listener in more completely, and to better communicate the sense of building musical excitemenmt, and it is definitely - given the right tonearm - superior to almost anythiung else in terms of timing (excepting the venerable Shure V15 VxMR). In addition, it is not aggressive but is extremely lively and dynamic (again, given the right tonearm), and is still champ when it comes to retrieving resonances (wooden instruments), to communicating the human voice (with all its natural dynamics) and to retrieving imaging information and air/venue (like live recordings which echo in their cavernous live spaces convincingly).

Now, I have to send my Sony 2000F preamp in to be adjusted and cleaned up, so in the meantime it'll be back to the Pioneer C-91, which along with the Wave 8s once was the heart of one of the most musically-satisfying and exciting systems I have ever had (with the Sound Dynamic RTS-5 speakers). I hope it works out tin the meantime: the Pinoeer has THE quietest MC phono stage possibly ever built, one can turn the volume all the way up with nary a hiss or crackle making its way in, sounding as if there was no power whatsoever.

So, have fun all, and I'll continue to report on my various experiments out in the Arctic Country (snowstorms keep me in, giving me time to kill ;-)!! Remember, at the heart of all this slam, power, musical excitment and boogeying is an idler-wheel drive :-).

"the whole issue of torque vs inertia" ...is an interesting topic in itself.

I thought about inertia and mass with respect to the idler turntable for a very long time. It doesn't require a motor which has more torque, so traditional ones will be able to accomplish the task. To do it does require a new platter, however. There is a way to do it that has never been built in an idler design before, but it requires a new look at the idler altogether because previous designs were not configured in a way that made it feasible.

That said, I am very near the end of a project that attempts to accomplish the goal of added inertia without associated noise while maintaining the traditional idler concept. It is different, but I really believe that I may have pulled it off. We'll see soon.

Regards,
mosin

45 dollar slate slab vs. 1100 dollar Welsh Slate plinth..... after a lengthy debate with the slatedeck guy as to whether Welsh Slate would improve twenty, ten, or even twofold what I was hearing from the plain old slate I used, It all came down to.... "Well, either you want a Merc or a Mini" or some such elitist nonesense!
Typical snake oil BS!!! I guess the $1100 would put me on high street, regardless of sound quality.... I have kind of left that forum alone for a bit, as my little DIY experiment thread became a 2 way pissing match with a marketeer... sheesh! Anyways, I finally wallmounted my beastie, and I will give it another month of listening, just to be absolutely sure I am not merely going thru a honeymoon phase! John, send me your address and some specs for your piece!
Harv.

Harvey,
The fact that you don't agree with some points that have been generously and with no promoting idea explained don't turn them into b******t.
Always nice to spend some time explaining things to people and get a rotten fish in the face at the end of the play......
Don't have anything else to add.

François from LL.

Hi Harvey, I'll give it a go and report on it, looks like the snowstorms are coming to an end and Spring is about to make an appearance!!

Mosin, we'll keep an eye out for further idler developments. One fellow (hi Stephen) e-mailed me a suggestion: a peripheral ring-clamp for the Garrard a la VPI and as suggested originally on a certain vintage 'table website (can't remember the link now out in the Isolated Country, the one with pages for the SP10 MKII, Thorenses and so on). Anyway, I'll see what can be done once I've made the measurements and consulted with a machinist. Though the Garrard has more torque than the Lenco, it's not a huge difference, having perhaps 20% more torque, so extra mass might amount to only an extra 4 pounds or so to even out the result and make it approach/match and perhaps surpass the Lenco results. The MASSIVE Garrard bearing can certainly take the extra weight, just make sure that the 'table remains level so as not to wear the bushings out on one side. Of course, if a ring-clamp, it can't foul the Garrard controls, measurements must be closely calculated.

On this subject, I cannot emphasize enough just how important Direct Coupling to a high mass is!! I point again to the beating the Sony 2250 served up to the Technics SP-10 MKII in identical plinths (i.e. size and make-up of burch-ply/MDF), despite the Sony's significantly inferior torque. The Sony can be Direct Coupled, the Technics cannot. And the difference between Direct Coupling to a 60-pound plinth and Direct Coupling to a 30-pound plinth is MUCH moroe than a simple doubling of sound quality, the Lenco crossing over into a whole new and unbelievable league.

On this point of Direct Coupling and mass vs inertia, AND quartz-locking, I also cannot believe just how musical the quartz-locked Technics SP-25 is when Direct Coupled to a high-mass CLD plinth. So this makes me wonder: why is the Technics SP-10 MKII so [relatively] unmusical (and inferior in every audiophile sense) to the Sony 2250, and the SP-25, also quartz-locked, ends up being so musical? Given the latest Garrard vs Lenco experiments/experiences, I point to the issue of torque vs inertia. Not only can the SP-10 MKII not be Direct Coupled, it also has MUCH more torque than the Sony 2250. But then the SP-25, which is also quartz-locked, CAN sound musical. So quartz-locking is not inherently a-musical, as I previously thought. What is happening is that the SP-10 MKII's drive system is, like the Garrard's, SO powerful it is imposing its sound on the music, resulting in the quartz-locking being audible (not a pretty picture). Given more inertia (a more massive platter, with mass concentrated on the rim) and Direct Coupling (which absorbs/eliminates noise AND further immobilizes the 'table), the SP-10 MKII should preserve its advantages (all that torque/control and superb build quality) and achieve a high level of [relative] musicality. As to Relative Musicality, a Giant Direct Coupled Lenco has to be heard to be believed, and to understand just how musically-powerful vinyl can be, I believing the Lenco is currently at the top of this heap as well.

Further on this point, the previous owner of the Shindo Garrard is also the owner of a second-from top-of-the-line Maplenoll with massive platter (40-pound graphite/lead platter) and Corian body (his current 'table), and like me years ago when I first heard the humble Garrard SP-25, understood within three minutes just how superior the Lenco was (in my case, I understood, given just how humble the SP-25, that the idler-wheel principle was superior). The Lenco has its powerful 1800-rpm motor and an eight-pound platter. While the Lenco's motor is not as powerful as the Garrard's, not too much can be made of this as the Lenco's motor is still very powerful, spinning at 1800 RPM and weighing in at roughly 4 pounds, and once actually having lifted an 80-pound Lenco off one foot when I accidentally engaged it at 78 rpm from stopped!

Anyway, I'll have to get my hands on an SP-10 once again and see if, after all, something can be done to Direct Couple it, and see about a ring-clamp or substitue heavy platter.

Finally, on the Budget Reference System Front, I cannot believe the results I am currently getting from my current system, which was assembled on a hunch: of course the Ultra Lenco (even larger than usual), followed by the MAS 282 tonearm matched to my Grado Woody (they ALL have the same basic character of super-exciting dynamics, irresistable musicality, retrieval of air and resonances which allows accurate identification of acoustic instruments, wonderful vocals, powerful bass, and so on) and the Sonus/Mayware/Satin M-117HZ, then via the Sony 2000F preamp to the Dynaco ST-120 (!!!) and out via the Klipsch Heresy speakers. We're back in the Kundalini Effect days, and here I now stay, afraid of messing with this latest recipe to achieve the Kundalini Effect. Come to think of it, the last time I had this effect/sound, I also used the MAS 282/Grado combination. The MAS seems to be the secret ingredient in achieving Full Grado Potential, but I'll do further experiments and see if there are alternatives. I also managed it with a Denon DL-103 on various tonearms, particularly the SME V. Anyway, I cannot believe just how wonderful the little Dynaco - available usually for $200 - is via the Klipches (running somewhere arornd $400 usually)!! The magic is stupendous, the SLAM limitless, the delicacy endlessly inviting, and informationally superb, if not state of the art (perhaps the Sonus/Satin will give me this, I'll check it out). A Super Budget System for peanuts!!

On the subject of the Denon DL-103, I was shocked, in a high-resolution system (tubes/Quad ESL63s), at just how vastly superior the Denon DL-103"E" (elliptical tip, new aluminum cantilever) from phonophono in Berlin was to the regular '103, in the bass as well as in terms of detail/clarity, which was in an utterly diferent league. And the Denon magic was completely there to boot. Highly recommended, send your 103s to phonophono for retipping!!

Anyway, have fun all, winter's almost over!!