Is Digital actually better than Analog?

Hey Nsgarch, it seems we both need to learn a lot about audio. Where did you get that silly notion that sound reflection and refraction should occur naturally when you can have it done artificially? ;-)

Good thing we both spell correctly, otherwise we would really have looked like idiots.

Regards
Paul

D_edwards, I'm not sure what you mean by:

"If you listen in two channel only, you are not getting the best digital has too offer. Infact you're getting the nasty end of the stick."

unless you're referring to multi-channel SACD.

However, I have experienced every derived-ambience/multi-channel processing technique that's been devised, including all those created by the film industry. Everything from the old sum-difference technique Newbee described thru SQ and Quadraphonic records (and tapes) and all the various permutations of "surround" starting with the first Lexicon 7.1 processors. In the late 60's, I participated in the first controlled study of human stereophonic perception while studying psychoacoustics at MIT (pre-multichannel of course, but we all had at least two ears;--)

After all that (and my reason for returning to a purely two channel source/playback arrangement,) it became clear to me that multichannel, from the simplest home surround to the most complex 500 channel arrays used now for computerized concert hall design, does one thing: it produces a virtual sound field -- it can reproduce a real one, or create a "designed" one. Nothing wrong with that (except for all the additional hardware,) and most effective when done in an anechoic space.

However, in a properly designed live-end/dead-end room and optimum speaker/listener placement, a two channel playback system will accurately re-produce an original (i.e. recorded in a real space) sound field. What it won't do (very well) is create virtual sound fields: computer games, HT surround sound, or "studio created" multi-channel. I did find "designed" or "studio mixed" multi-channel stimulating for a time. But for me, it added absolutely nothing to the performance -- the Art of music, or the impact/realism of the kind of movies I usually watch at home. Eventually the novelty of the "ping-pong effect" wore off. My listening room provides an excellent natural (as opposed to virtual) sound field without all the extra hardware, so that's where I wound up: I got bored with multi. Others may not.

Your comment:

"there are toher factors that profundly affect 2 channel playback of digital in a very negative way."

I don't understand. Maybe you could elaborate?
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Nsgarch,

You couldn't have been more accomadating in demonstrating the incorrect assumptions associated with this part of our hobby. Your education and experience only highlights how little is understood, and I will apologize for some of the information I share as it does not put your comments in the best light. People like Pauly and Queg may not realize it but they do have a great deal to learn about audio, and I hope that's a truth they can handle. Spending money is not experience, listening is poor experience and yet that seems to be all the qualification anyone needs to be judgemental about who knows what. Its ok I'm used to it.

1. All of your expirements where in analog and FYI a full decade after the multichannel expirements by your school and Harvard? Were you in the psych department or audiology?

"the first controlled study of human stereophonic perception" I have conflicting data, in the 1930's stereo was being tested on human beings. By 1950 Discrete surround was available in the theaters with some of the greatest orchestral recordings being 7 channels? Your tests were irrelevant and decades obsolete as it regarded audio and human perception. Sorry to inform you.

2. The fact that you have TRIED to use and are familiar with all of the algos of surround simply does not impress me because you still call it a "ping pong effect" and that is IMO unnacceptable results, and I although most people who don't know what they're doing listen in "ping pong", I don't and won't! Most audiophiles cannot discern when they are listening in surround on my systems to recordings they know very well. And they are shocked by how pathetic 2 channel sounds when the surround is turned off, but that's just hearsay let's get back to facts.

It unfortunatley appears you have never heard a properly set up surround system atleast one set to my standards.

3. Since you have the science background, explain to me how a two channel system (which you do not own one BTW, you have a 4 channel system) recreates the 360 degree algorithms present in all reverb and harmonizing equipment used by professional studios to make recordings?

"I don't understand. Maybe you could elaborate?"

try to answer question 3 and you'll have 1 of my anchors to that comment in my previous post.

4. "I got bored with multi", no you still own a multichannel system which having been an owner of Martin Loagn CLS's I can tell you that you don't have a natural soundfield, you're stuck with one that you accept as the truth and for a few recordings maybe its close to "natural" but for all of the others you simply accept it as truth. Dipole speakers like ML and Apogee and Magnepan were the gateway to my surround philosophy, which was born out of necessiity since I often lived in places that would not allow proper set up of Dipole speakers.

5. "However, in a properly designed live-end/dead-end room and optimum speaker/listener placement, a two channel playback system will accurately re-produce an original (i.e. recorded in a real space) sound field."

Your dreaming and even though that may be the best 2 channel can do, and let me remind you once again you don't own a 2 channel system. To believe as you do you are ignoring microphone pickup patterns and other fundamental noise and signal issues.

So you need to rethink your philosophy a little to accomodate the truth of your reality. I'm not making a judgement about how your systems sounds, I am giving you facts about what your system can and cannot do.

Think about it. Why do you have a 4 channel system with fixed reverb and you're climbing all over me when your 3/4 the way to thinking the way I do? Just need to move those effect channels a little tis all. ;)

Thanks D. So glad someone was able to clear all that up for me. Very impressive system BTW.

LOL. Tsk Tsk Msgarch, and there you were posting like you actually knew what you were talking about ;-)

Look on the bright side, you’re 3/4 way there, I still need 10 years! Man I doubt I can handle the agony of listening to vinyl for another ten years. I’m going rush off to Best Buy and experience the realism of surround sound today …