DPS/Schroeder Ref. Turntable

Hi Red, Doc ...

I agree with both of you. Let me explain / clarify.

Regarding my comments about filament voltages, I can see where some might infer that I was claiming to have discovered a magic "tonearm dial" with this filament voltage adjustment - that this "dial" could make a Schröder and Triplanar sound identical to each other.

Differences between the two still exist and their essential characters were still evident.

I was however amazed at how startling was the convergence between the two arms, and this was my main point. I was fine tuning a single system while the differences between our collective audio systems are far greater than what I did that night.

From this perspective, you might well find someone to prefer a Triplanar in one system and a Schröder in another.

Perhaps this is why we have more trouble with our chosen hobby than the folks I reference in this thread have in picking out technology that can save their lives.

Given how close the two arms are, one can make a powerful dollars and cents argument in favor of the Triplanar. Those who know me realize that I would not criticize this decision. Of course, we all define quality differently. I won't belabor this point, because we can all fill in the blanks - consistent with our priorities and aesthetics.

Finally, there's the human interface factor, and Doc uses a good metaphor in his firearm example. One or both tonearms will make "sense" to you. The one that makes "sense" is the best arm for you.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

Wonderful discusssion and a succession of insightful points, especially from Flyingred and Thom. I've experienced all they discussed re: the choice between TriPlanar vs. Schroeder (both Reference and DPS). We chose the TriPlanar for exactly the reasons they mentioned: comfort with setup and adjustment. For our priorities the TriPlanar was the easier arm to set up and use accurately.

The result has been, as Raul observed during a recent visit, that we play our arm/cartridge "on the edge", meaning that the tiniest adjustments are instantly audible. We don't do this for the "thrill", we do it because that knife edge is where everything sounds best, most lifelike, most real. Our choice of arms made it easier for us to discover the optimal setting for each parameter, which gives us the best musical reproduction.

Flyingred's mention of the non-elastic belt used by Galibier/Redpoint/Teres should be re-emphasized. This apparently subtle point is easily overlooked when trying to assess TT's from a distance. It would never be overlooked by someone who's tried different belts for themselves.

The difference in transient speed, dynamics and bass strength and accuracy between non-elastic and elastic belts has to be heard to be appreciated. There are many beautifully built tables on offer today, but when my advice is sought I will not recommend one which employs a significantly non-linear torque coupling between motor and platter. The damage this does to musical liveliness and accuracy is too great, at least to our ears.

Dear pentatonia: Yes, the Tri is really a great tool about VTA: I agree with Doug where I had that TRI lovely experience.

regards and enjoy the music.
raul.

Thom:
Interesting stuff re: avy beacons. For reference, I am in the snow 180+ days per year and DO use a beacon as a life-saving device.

I keep tabs on current technology but also know why I continue to use my preferred choice of beacon.

I think a key difference is that here we discuss something subjective (what sounds best to our ears), whereas with beacons we have something truly measurable (time required to find someone buried). Now, the complication is that an experienced user who knows what his beacon can/cannot do can get close to the theoretical minimum -- or at least know where the "gotchas" are.

For tonearms, an experienced user can get closer to the theoretical maximum performance -- but that it STILL subjective.

And, yes, it is amusing how life-saving devices can be discussed with more sterility than tonearms, but when we're talking about $4k and more for a tonearm, it's a safe thing to say that we're in the "leisure class" and fairly far removed from battling for daily survival.

Me? I chose both my tonearm and current preferred beacon based on objective (as close as they can come for tonearms is, maybe, comparing vs other options) and subjective measures. While I'm very, very fast with my beacon and it is great with multiple burials and transmits a very strong (long-range) signal, it's not what I recommend to everyone.

If you knew someone lived out in the sticks and had no help setting up their TT.... which arm would you recommend? (Rhetorical question)

Would a poorly setup "reference" arm that is notorious for challenging setup be bested by a well-set-up "lesser" arm that is "easy" for those fat-fingered?

It's a different question when we have this group of more folks who are more capable of properly setting up most arms (or is that being too generous in stating the skills of those on A-gon? .... $$ does not necessarily equate to facility in setting up a mechanical device) -- but it still comes down to subjective criteria.

Also... I had it from a good source that Schoeder tonearms really aren't available any longer. Can you shed any light on this? When did the last one you ordered come in? I know someone on the waiting list for more than 16 months with no known "start" date.

For what its worth, going back to the original post regarding the dps and verdier I can make a few comments. First and most important, we do run a store which has both verdier and dps, but we don't internet sell to any degree and my partner and I are both long time audionuts that decided to set up a business. All this just says, I don't believe I have much of an axe to grind and I don't care if you buy one or the other, or neither. My partner has used the verdier for a long time, we recently started to carry dps. II have not heard them in the same room together and its only so likely this will happen. I have however listened to both quite extensively. Also for the moment I am using the rb250 modified by DPS.

First the tables couldn't be more dissimilar in physical structure. The dps is small in size and footprint, very minimalistic and looks kind of like a line. The verdier is beautiful from an engineering point of view but quite industrial. It is also very big. I know that spousal acceptance is going to be different for the two.

As for the sound, I think they are not wildly dissimilar. Both are very musical with great rhythm. I can't say a huge amount more about this because it is very dependent on the system and the room.

One final note regarding the arms. Willi feels the power supply is as important, and indeed more so, than arm choice. I have just put in the dps3 power supply and it really is quite impressive about how much it improves the sound. Even more solid, with greater substance and authority. Not subtle at all when you switch back and forth (much easier to do than changing arsm).
I hope this is of some help

Gary