DPS/Schroeder Ref. Turntable

Hi Ebalog,

I'm glad to hear they're not out of production, although it does sound like in addition to a substantial waiting period, there aren't many arms coming out, period.

Paraphrasing Mark Twain, rumors of Frank's death are greatly exaggerated.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Frank is back on track, producing and delivering tonearms on a regular basis and at his previous rate.

Any backlog relates to him falling behind last year (in 2006). Stated another way, production dropped off in 2006 but has returned to normal.

The way I see it, Frank has a few options:

1. To put a moratorium on orders until he brings his backlog back to a 4 month waiting period

2. To continue taking his normal order volume and somehow work to eat into the backlog

3. To continue with his normal production and accept the increased waiting period.

When I last checked, Richard Sachs was running a 39 month waiting period for his bicycles. You will not convince Richard, Frank, (or myself, for that matter) to hire a second shift to do work that we put our names on.

I've heard stories (reliable) of some folks being told that at this point they should not wait any longer, which was a sad realization for them.

I am puzzled by this comment, as I am equally puzzled by general statements made in mainstream media "we understand from reliable sources ... ". The only realization to be made is that some good things are worth waiting for.

Surely the decision to order a Schröder and wait is a personal one. As a dealer for Schröder, Triplanar and Dynavector tonearms, it's certainly in my best interest to sell the latter two, cash the check, and be done with it ... leaving aside any auditioning issues and which arm you'd prefer.

As an aside, I make it very easy for purchasers of Galibier turntables to work their way into a Schröder tonearm.

I look at it this way: In a world of instant gratification, not everyone has the makeup to wait for a hand-built product like a Schröder.

Don't get me wrong, it's great to reach a decision, write your check and get to come home with the goods. I would not argue against this in a perfect world. At the same time, reality dictates otherwise, and everyone has to make their own choices.

I guess I'm unclear as to why someone would not get on the waiting list - even when you discount the notion that owning a Schröder tonearm is like collecting fine art. A Schröder tonearm will not depreciate and will not wear out.

I'd have gone on the list myself, but I did not have the luxury of time (i.e., I "needed" (who really "needs" a tonearm) a better performing tonearm than what I had "desperately" -- I couldn't wait 16 months or longer/forever).

In this age of Audiogon sales, I find it difficult to believe that you cannot own an interim tonearm at little to zero net expense to you - an arm that you can subsequently sell when your Schröder arrives. See my comments above about how I make it easy to transition into Schröder.

Now, if you don't own a flexible turntable architecture like a Galibier, then perhaps changing tonearms presents a problem for you. I'd take this up with the dealer who sold you your turntable. What? You can't get service from him? I can't speak on behalf of other manufacturers, but the ease (or expense) of swapping armboards has never been an issue for Galibier owners.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

Thom,

It's a Costco/Walmart world. Instant gratification and mass production are what people expect. Lasting quality, workmanship, and attention to the finest details are a thing of the past.

Thom:
Your post is an interesting and informative one, but it also makes a few points that beg clarification.

I know of at least one individual on the waiting list for, so far, more than 15 months -- and he's not heard a word that he's even near to the start of the "4-6 month waiting period". I would only say this is a "reliable source" as it is someone I know personally with no vested interest in the outcome.

He was told be individuals that, perhaps, live in the same region as the manufacturer that he should not expect anything. Of course, he could be pleasantly surprised one day when he gets the call for his payment and for production to "begin".

No one in this situation was trying to sell anything, and it is people that i know personally.

When I said "I don't have the luxury of time", it is not to say that I could buy a good (excellent!), used (non-Schroder) tonearm and basically pay nothing for it if I were to sell it down the line.

That said, we both know that certain tonearms NEVER come up in the used market. I happened to select one such tonearm as my choice, and it's the best I've ever heard. I have no intentions of selling as it, too, is a work of art and produces amazing music (most importantly). I think it blows away anything that I've heard...and anything I've seen on the used market.

Caveat: I have never had the good fortune to hear a Schroder reference.

So, you see, for me, I *could* go on the waiting list and sometime in the future (maybe in 6 months, 16 months, or 6 years) take delivery on it, but it is still unknown to me, and I could not say for sure that it would be better (or "different" but in a more pleasing way) than what I have. Also, I know that owning a tonearm at this level -- one tonearm -- is a dream come true. When I am in a more practical mood, I recognize that owning my current tonearm (as I'd never sell it) AND a Schroder just ain't gonna happen for me. :)

And (repeating myself here), while your strategy to buy something for the present (which could wind up being years) to sell at minimal to no loss is a good one, I saw no reason to "suffer" (being dramatic here) with a lesser arm than what I got. Does that make any sense?

To restate: If you found you wanted one of Mr Sachs's bicycles, for instance, (on a hunch because of what you *expect* them to turn out like...not because you've ridden one) but you needed something to ride in the interim (3.5 years)... would you (a) buy a used bike that was 85% of what you wanted and sell it at no loss or (b) buy a new bike that was actually the best thing you'd ever ridden to date? Effectively, I chose (b) in that case -- realizing that my selection may (or may not) exceed the "vaporware".

This would all be different if one knew the Schroder was the be-all and end-all in their own system, and it was just a matter of waiting it out. Many suspect it could be, but few, I would bet, have tested it in their system and also compared it to some other scarce (but less so than the Schroder) tonearm.

Also, while I appreciate that you are a solid manufacturer and quite dedicated, your implication that other manufacturers and/or dealers are less flexible is true for some but not all. The particular manufacturer I selected can supply an armboard drilled for any tonearm in short order -- that is not a constraint.

One thing is certain: No matter your dedication and or quality of service if one is a one-man shop (a la Frank or you for that matter), if one should ever have the misfortune to fall ill or experience some issue, that very high level of service one has provided may go by the wayside.

We all agree that Frank's medical treatments (rightly so!) should not suffer... so the question is what happens when one cannot dedicate as much time to their craft/passion?

If you had an extended stay in the hospital (this is hypothetical and -- god willing -- I hope you live a long and healthy life) or suffered from Frank's afflictions, is your turnaround for an armboard or a part for your 'table going to be affected? No one would hold it against you, but such things need to be recognized.

This is altogether different than a manufacturer/dealer providing poor service by choice, but the net for the customer is the same.

I do hope that the tonearms Frank is currently capable of producing are up to the standard of his legendary work of yore.

I'd love to be on his list, but it seems that one needs to purchase a TT as a "hook" to get in.

All the best, and I mean no disrespect whatsoever, as you seem like a stand-up individual and, I'm sure, manufacture a product that provides musical pleasure to many.

Hi Ebalog,

This is a great topic, and you raise some very important questions that span well beyond those of Schröder, Galibier and other small manufacturers - falling into two broad areas: extended waiting periods, and working with small manufacturers in general.

I've thought a lot about the latter issue from both sides of the fence - both from the perspective of a manufacturer as well as from that of a customer - probably dating to my purchase of a Merrill Turntable in 1991, and most recently with the Aurora Guitar Amplifier I ordered last month from Mission Amps.

Maybe I'm a sucker for a small guy who trades punches with the big boys. I don't know. Bruce Collins (Mission Amps) has a very helpful presence on a guitar amplifier forum I frequent and I sensed a genuine passion as well has high level of competence in the man.

I touch on some of these issues in my About Page, but perhaps it's best to discuss them here, in the context of your comments.

Your point about ongoing manufacturer support is an important one - whether in the context of a large corporation or a one-man shop. I think it's extremely important that everyone pick their comfort zone in this regard.

Let's look two extremes in manufacturer size - Micro Seiki and Merrilll.

Micro Seiki ...

Micro Seiki closed their doors in 1991, and people began scrambling for replacement parts. Thanks to the Internet, there is a Micro Seiki group on Yahoo Groups.

Now, most parts on Micros are fairly difficult to come by and no Internet group is going to help you replace some critical parts. On the other hand, several machinists frequent that group, and there has been talk for example about co-manufacturing armboards. Large companies go out of business. Others cease to support older models. It is not risk-free.

Merrill ...

When I purchased my Merrill turntable in 1991, it was with the understanding that the day would come when George would roll down is blinds for the last time. I purchased a spare motor controller, knowing that this was a part that was the most likely to fail over my lifetime of ownership.

It so happens that Anthony Scillia has partnered up with George to form Merrill-Scillia and Merill is as alive as ever.

Who would have figured in 1989 that Merrill would "outlive" Micro Seiki?

Now, I can't speak for other manufacturers (large or small), but it was my ownership of the Merrill which guided my design philosophy at Galibier. I don't want to hijack this thread into a sales pitch, but suffice it to say, that I worked hard to "future proof" my designs so that the end-user could keep his turntable running with local resources.

All of this is to say that large manufacturer or small, you are running a risk as far as the ability of the manufacturer to respond to your needs for one reason or another - whether it be due to business continuity (longevity), support of discontinued models, etc.

In the end, I think it is critical for the customer to feel comfortable with their purchase and I'd be the last to argue that any single business model is superior to all others.

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I don't know what to make of your friend and his waiting period for his Schröder. Surely, communications with his dealer would be helpful for him, although frankly there's not much to be said from such communications - other than to say "yes, your arm is on order, sir".

I do know that in working with Frank, I don't even consider getting a status for more than the next two arms on my list. I accept that any such estimate is meaningless. My reasoning is based on the assumption that I'm perhaps one of a dozen dealers world-wide. To ask Frank to predict more than two arms out is to expect him to predict beyond 24 tonearms which is plainly not possible.

I would estimate that 70% of the Schröders I sell are to people who have not purchased a Galibier turntable from me.

When I speak of the service I give to my turntable customers while they are waiting for their Schröder, I hope this wasn't construed as preferential treatment in terms of order fulfillment.

I was trying to convey an expression of gratitude for peoples' business by loaning armboards, sourcing arms where possible - that sort of thing. I maintain a list of orders and forward it to Frank on a monthly basis - as a "tickler file" if you will. I do not change the priorities based on what a person purchased from me.

It sounds as if you have found a marvelous tonearm and you are thrilled with it. This is great news. I have a Micro MX-282 which is on loan to a friend. I demand that this arm stay in my extended audio family, so I understand your comments about the arm you acquired being a "keeper".

I sense that on some level however, that you are curious about Schröders. Perhaps this is intellectual curiosity about the unobtanium, and nothing more. I understand. If you're ever in the Colorado area, feel free to arrange a "no obligation" comparison of a Schröder and Triplanar. Please note however, I just sent may personal arm to Frank to swap out the arm wand and the wire. Maybe I can pull some strings to get it back by the end of the year. Sorry, I couldn't resist injecting some humor here.

Your question about a Richard Sachs bike is a good one. Usually, when we're at the level of considering either a Schröder Tonearm or a Richard Sachs bike, we already own a fairly fine tonearm or bicycle.

Assuming this weren't the case, I'd obviously have to purchase a bicycle in order to get through the waiting period. My path would likely take me to another small builder like Tom Nobilette or Eisentraut. Alternatively, I might purchase a production Moots, which I'd equivocate with purchasing of a Triplanar Tonearm in our example - not exactly chopped liver.

Like yourself, I could find myself keeping the Moots and pedaling happily ever after ... or a Triplanar over a Schröder. We are talking about very fine pieces in these two examples, and given tastes and such, one never knows which one will prefer.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

Ebalog, you are astute in picking up the sentiment in my post. Power supply components are not massively expensive and it would be possible for a manufacturer to incorporate a better specification for minimal increase in price.

On your point about the risk of buying a piece made by a small volume manufacturer, I think it's minimal. In the case of Frank's arms, because there are no bearing surfaces there is nothing that can wear out. In the case of Thom's Galibier turntables, the mechanical parts are massively over-engineered and are likely to never wear out and the few electronic components in the motor controller are generic.

I have a Lenco that must have been built over 30 years ago and nothing on it shows any sign of wear, although it's reassuring to know that there's a small company in Sussex, England that keeps a stock of most of the parts! The point I'm trying to make is that, apart from stylii, nothing else on a turntable ever wears out or fails.

Contrast this with the Technics SP10 MkII - arguably the most advanced turntable ever built - many of the ICs in the controller are out of production and unavailable. Also, most cassette decks still in existence (built by large corporations like Sony, Aiwa, Technics, Nakamichi, Denon, etc.) can't be repaired because parts are no longer available. It's not the longevity of the manufacturer that's the issue - it's the life cycle of the components the manufacturer incorporates in his design that's significant.

I have a Fidelity Research FR64s tone arm that I bought nearly 30 years ago that's still going strong - the fact that Fidelity Research disappeared decades ago is irrelevant. Because this arm has a great reputation and is still in demand it would be worth having a specialist replace the bearings and rewire it at some stage (if necessary).

I also have an old Grace F9 cartridge that I could have rebuilt indefinitely (should I choose to) like George Washington's ax, because it is designed in a way that enables other skilled cartridge builders to maintain it.