Balanced in phono stages preamp?

it is neither SE or balanced- it simply is

You lost me there. I'll have to think about that one, but I would argue that the record groove as well as sound itself is single ended. I don't think something is balanced unless you have a pair of signals of opposite polarities.

Since nothing in the home stereo meets this requirement unless we create the opposite signal, it is single ended. I'll have to ponder the situation of a cartridge hooked up to the inputs of a diff amp as noise rejection at this low level makes sense. I may try that myself, but I see no compelling reason to go balanced after that.

>>Everyone here is getting the terms differential and balanced mixed<<

That would be me! Perhaps we are all in agreement technically, just not semantically.

For me, "balance" is like a scale (in the original sense). Or akin to a see-saw. Two ends, and a solid pivot point in the middle. Remove the pivot and ... well ... you have a cartridge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_line

Calling the turntable ground as the "third wire" is disengenuous. As was pointed out above, it is not part of the signalling.

jh

OK, now my brain hurts. Here's an interesting read.

http://www.ultracad.com/articles/differentialrules.pdf

It would seem to support Ralph's assertion that a cartridge is balanced IF you accept that differential signals are the same as balanced. If you go with Hagtech's definition that a 3rd ground leg is required to meet the definition of balanced then a cartridge is not.

However, I can't find any definitions or discussions (other than this one) that require this ground. The ones I have found discuss currents in the 2 legs as equal but in opposite directions, which a cartridge would fufill. It also seems to me that if you want to get a ground refernce involved, as soon as you hook up the leads to a differential amplifier that they could be referenced to that circuit's ground.

Then again, I suppose Ralph's assertion that what really matters is the circuit and how it sounds and it doesn't matter what you call it might be the best approach.

When you get away from purely technical considerations, and you have the average buyers desire for best bang for the buck in both sound quality and reliability, you wonder which approach outweighs the other at a fixed cost of manufacture?

Hi jh, the way differential amplifiers work is that ground is ignored. Our preamps are fully differential from input to output and so the ground is merely a shield- no currents are passed through it. This helps prevent ground loops.

As I mentioned, differential amps ignore ground. They have two inputs: non-inverting (positive) and inverting (negative). The differential amplifier will do nothing if the signal is the same on both inputs; it will only amplify what is *different* between the two inputs.

Thus there is nothing disingenuous about the tone arm being ground- it *is* at ground and is providing a shield as the signal leaves the cartridge.

Balanced inputs that are not differential are a different story- ground can play a crucial role. Differential amplifiers (a subset of balanced amplifiers) consequently offer higher performance, less complexity and lower noise.

Herman, There is a tendency to try to create interpretations for all sorts of experiences that we have in the world. In the case of the SE/balanced issue, the interpretation that I am referring to is to identify sounds within the realm of SE or balanced when it is neither. Its OK to question this- I did myself for a while until I got that I had to give up the interpretive story. Then I was able to realize that sound simply is what it is and is neither SE or balanced but a series of pressure variances in the atmosphere.

It is when the sound arrives at a microphone that it suddenly appears in the realm of electronics and is subject to being SE or balanced. All dynamic pickups are balanced as are capacitive pickups (although their preamps are often SE) and all the output transformers on microphones are balanced and on and on.

There is merit to the argument of keeping what started balanced in that domain, but sound itself has nothing to do with this. To give you some perspective, SE signals travel in a cable with a single conductor and a ground. The ground connection is the 'return' circuit- where is the return circuit for sound itself? There is none- it is an entirely different phenomena from that of electronics.

On an LP the sound is encoded in grooves due to a 3rd phenomena: a mechanical process and is again neither SE or balanced. However FWIW the cutterhead is a balanced load insofar as the amp is concerned: like all other balanced devices reversing the connections does nothing except invert phase (a property of a balanced device).

If it helps at all, take a look at an Ampex 351 schematic and see how the input and output transformers are used to accept or create balanced operation. Its an eye opener: a center tap is not part of the equation...