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What Makes a Good RIAA or Line Stage?

Hi Doug,

In a currently running thread on a certain RIAA / Line stage beginning with the letter "E", some very provocative comments were made that are of a general nature.

I fear that this conversation will be lost on the many individuals who have soured on the direction which that particular thread has taken. For the purpose of future searches of this archive, those interested in the "E" thread can click this link.

For the rest of us who are interested in some of the meta concepts involved in RIAA and Line Level circuits, I've kicked this thread off - rather than to hijack that other one. In that thread, you (Doug) mused about the differences between your Alap and Dan's Rhea/Calypso:

... the Alaap has the best power supplies I've heard in any tube preamp. This is (in my admittedly unqualified opinion) a major reason why it outplayed Dan's Rhea/Calypso, which sounded starved at dynamic peaks by comparison.

Knowing only a bit more than you, Doug, I too would bet the farm on Nick's p-s design being "better", but know here that "better" is a very open ended term. I'd love to hear Nick's comments (or Jim Hagerman's - who surfs this forum) on this topic, so I'll instigate a bit with some thoughts of my own. Perhaps we can gain some insight.

----

Power supplies are a lot like automobile engines - you have two basic categories:

1. The low revving, high torque variety, characteristic of the American muscle car and espoused by many s-s designers in the world of audio.

2. The high revving, low torque variety characteristic of double overhead cam, 4 valves per cylinder - typically espoused by the single-ended / horn crowd.

Now, just as in autos, each architecture has its own particular advantage, and we truly have a continuum from one extreme to the other..

Large, high-capacitance supplies (category 1) tend to go on forever, but when they run out of gas, it's a sorry sight. Smaller capacitance supplies (category 2) recharge more quickly - being more responsive to musical transients, but will run out of steam during extended, peak demands.

In my humble opinion, your Alap convinced Dan to get out his checkbook in part because of the balance that Nick struck between these two competing goals (an elegant balance), but also because of a design philosophy that actually took music into account.

Too many engineers lose sight of music.

Take this as one man's opinion and nothing more, but when I opened the lid on the dual mono p-s chassis of my friend's Aesthetix Io, my eyes popped out. I could scarcely believe the site of all of those 12AX7 tubes serving as voltage regulators - each one of them having their own 3-pin regulators (e.g. LM317, etc.) to run their filaments.

Please understand that my mention of the Aesthetix is anecdotal, as there are quite a few designs highly regarded designs which embody this approach. It's not my intent to single them out, but is rather a data point in the matrix of my experience.

I was fairly much an electronics design newbie at the time, and I was still piecing my reality together - specifically that design challenges become exponentially more difficult when you introduce too many variables (parts). Another thing I was in the process of learning is that you can over-filter a power supply.

Too much "muscle" in a power supply (as with people), means too little grace, speed, and flexibility.

If I had the skill that Jim Hagerman, Nick Doshi, or John Atwood have, then my design goal would be the athletic equivalent of a Bruce Lee - nimble, lightning quick and unfazed by any musical passage you could throw at it.

In contrast, many of the designs from the big boys remind me of offensive linemen in the National Football League. They do fine with heavy loads, and that's about it.

One has to wonder why someone would complicate matters to such an extent. Surely, they consider the results to be worth it, and many people whom I like and respect consider the results of designs espousing this philosophy of complexity to be an effort that achieves musical goals.

I would be the last person to dictate tastes in hi-fi - other than ask them to focus on the following two considerations:

1. Does this component give me insight into the musical intent of the performer? Does it help me make more "sense" out of things?

2. Will this component help me to enjoy EVERY SINGLE ONE of my recordings, and not just my audiophile recordings?

All other considerations are about sound effects and not music.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier
128x128thom_at_galibier_design
mothra
110 posts
 
What impressed me about talking to Nick (among other things) was that we both came from the pro audio background and he seemed very sensible about his design issues with hi fi gear. He doesn't throw around a lot of snake oil.

One thing I can tell you about tape machines and recording studios where all this music we listen to is made, is that power supplies have long been the devil. This may not be news to anyone but if get into the pro audio community you'll find slathering comments about certain ampex atr's and never boards and 3m half inch two tracks. In La, where i lived for a long time, most of the good studios like capitol, had dean jensen go through and rebuild everything. Their atr's machines were not nearly stock. not were the consoles at olympic or the neve's at ocean way or really any piece of gear that was famous. And, almost always, the power supply is the big thing that was skimped on.

nick's heavily damped unit, with separate supplies and keen attention to grounding is probably one of the reasons why his stuff sounds so great even though he didn't re-invent the wheel design-wise. I think he just has the diagnostic issues that create problems in other units licked.

I had an aesthetix rhea and the doshi absolutely embarrassed it for noise floor, detail and neutrality. I have not tried everything out there, but I kind of don't want to anymore.
thom_at_galibier_design's avatar
thom_at_galibier_design OP
729 posts
 
Hi Ralph,

Likely this best discussed (or put to rest) in the already heavily beaten to death thread on balanced inputs to phono stages - where you and Jim H. had an "enthusiastic" discussion - ultimately agreeing to disagree.

Two of the main points I can't get around are:

(1) Whether or not a cartridge is a balanced or a floating single ended device. Floating single ended makes more sense to me.

and

(2) Since everyone more or less agrees that there isn't a 6dB noise advantage to running a cartridge in "balanced" mode, what might the advantages of running a cartridge in balanced mode be.

Given the fact minds far greater than mine disagree on the subject, I'm content to ultimately let my (and your) ears be the final arbiter of goodness.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier
mothra
110 posts
 
I can see why some people don't like revealing systems for rock, but I always prefer neutrality (while still retaining musicality), it can just take some getting used to.

My dunlavy's are ruthless compared to my B&W's and some people think B&W's are overly neutral! The dunlavy's give you ever speaker cone distortion from an amp amd every rattle from a string while the B&W's are a little more cohesive with more of a mid-bass bump. The things that takes getting used to is how some of the older recordings especially certain rock stuff that was mixed on altec 604's, just really changes a lot on a revealing system. But that resolution is also addictive and I find myself not caring what speakers I hear chuck berry on. He's still great and the players are still great. The recordings reveals strange things but to me nothing gets in the way of music except bloaty or harsh colorations. Many tube products do this and I am with doug on not dialing sweetness into the system.

There is a line where a system becomes unmusical, but i find if it is unmusical it is usually not reproducing music the way it was heard by the microphones.

Some people find certain things musical that are really not very neutral and these things strike first and bug you later. wilson speakers come to mind, but to each their own.
atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,841 posts
 
Two of the main points I can't get around are:

(1) Whether or not a cartridge is a balanced or a floating single ended device. Floating single ended makes more sense to me.

and

(2) Since everyone more or less agrees that there isn't a 6dB noise advantage to running a cartridge in "balanced" mode, what might the advantages of running a cartridge in balanced mode be.

Hi Thom, since a cartridge is an inductive device, it has something in common with other inductive devices like audio transformers. Any output of an audio transformer can be used in the balanced mode, even if it is driven single-ended. All that is required is that neither side be at ground. Ground can be the chassis the transformer is on; in the case of a cartridge ground can be the tonearm/turntable.

BTW a 'floating single-ended' device will hum like the dickens. Single ended devices are always grounded.

I have a tube mixer I built that is single-ended for my keyboards and drives a single-ended output transformer that is designed for 600 ohms. The output of the transformer is tied to pin 2 and pin3 of the XLR; pin 1 is ground. It drives 600 ohm balanced lines effortlessly.

Cartridges work the same way. It may not have been the intention of a cartridge manufacturer to make a balanced source out of it, but that is in fact how they behave since neither side of the cartridge is 'grounded', i.e. tied to its metal body. In fact many cartridges don't have a metal body! So really the question is more like: how in the hell can this thing be single-ended?" When looked at that way, you suddenly see why there have to be special grounding considerations (ex.: the third grounding wire) that you would not normally expect to see on your typical single-ended output (like from a tuner).

One obvious advantage of operating a cartridge balanced is the interconnect cable itself, which is less likely to have the usual interconnect cable colorations and less propensity for hum/noise pickup. Although the *output* of the cartridge is going to be the same regardless of balanced or single-ended, there is in fact a noise advantage to the input amplifier, simply because it is differential and makes less noise than a single-ended input amplifier.

IOW there is little advantage insofar as the cartridge itself is concerned, but plenty of advantage from everything that you use with it: the cable and the preamp itself.
hagtech
175 posts
 
>>since a cartridge is an inductive device<<

Being inductive should have nothing to do with balance. The transducer could be capacitive (touch sensor) or resistive (thermistor). It's just a two-terminal device.

>>there is in fact a noise advantage to the input amplifier, simply because it is differential and makes less noise than a single-ended input amplifier<<

I don't believe this is true. You get double the gain, but same SNR.

>>there is little advantage insofar as the cartridge itself is concerned, but plenty of advantage from everything that you use with it: the cable and the preamp itself<<

Yes, this is where we agree!

jh
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