Denon DL 103 vs DL 103R

Grimace, to operate either Denon straight into a phono stage, it should provide at least 60 dB of gain. Many will do so. And not to get you sidetracked here but offering adjustable loading would be important too. At the very least you will want to bring the load down from the standard 47K ohms to 100 or even less.

Now, a different consideration. I just checked your system and see you will be using a Grace 707 arm. If I remember correctly, this is a low mass arm so will not match well (resonance frequency) with either Denon cartridge.

To simplify your life (minimal purchases) I would suggest you research cartridges with 1.0 mV output or higher that are compatible (high compliance) with your 707 arm and that fall within your budget. This could be either a high output MC or a MM. Learn the proper set up procedure (archive search here and Vinyl Asylum) and go for it. After listening and learning about differences in SRA and VTF, see how well you are enjoying your system. Then, if need be you can begin to consider improvements. Good luck.

ditto Pryso. Not to confuse you but bear in mind that cartridge output specs can be referenced two ways, for example a .8mV@3.54cm/sec is the same as 1.13mV@5cm/sec. They don't always tell you which reference they use so a little research on what the standard is for that company is in order. As a further example, the Medium output MCs from Benz are .8mV@3.54cm/sec. This would be sufficient output for your phono stage and their compliance of 15 would be a minimum for that arm. The Denon 103 and 103R have a very low compliance of 5. Most MCs are going be a marginal match for that arm compliance-wise.

OK. This is getting off into stuff I know nothing about, but its a good thing you're telling me. Can you explain "compliance" a little more?

I also have a weight issue with the G707. The Shure, at 6 grams, has the counterweight spun pretty far out back. Any further and it would be bouncing off the cover when the needle reaches the dead wax. I am discovering that this arm has its limitations.

Compliance is the resistance to deflection from the centered resting position, or stiffness, of the cantilever which is the tiny "arm" that the stylus itself is attached to. The cantilever hinges on a donut of rubber and has the magnet or coil assembly attached to the internal end. It is the movement of this assembly in relation to the fixed coils or magnets that generates the signal. In the case of a MM or moving magnet cartridge, a small magnet is attached to the end of the cantilever and the coils are fixed in the body of the cartridge, thus the name, moving magnet. Moving magnet type cartridges usually are more compliant, or more flexible, in the neighborhood of 15-30, to make up for the higher mass of the magnets. Moving coil cartridges typically are less compliant, or stiffer, 5-15, to stabilize the lower mass of the coils. The relationship of arm mass to cartridge compliance involves balancing the effective mass of the arm with the cartridge weight and compliance such that the resonant frequency of the arm/cartridge system is lower than the lowest musical information but higher than the frequency where foot falls and record warps factor in. That frequency range is from 8-12 hz. In order to ensure an appropriate resonant frequency, the effective arm mass, typically between 6 and 18 grams, plus the cartridge weight, typically between 4 and 13 grams, plus the weight of the mounting hardware, about 1/2 gram, multiplied by the compliance, needs to be between 174 and 400. I'm not sure what the effective mass of the Grace 707 is but is definitely on the very low end. I'm guessing the resonant frequency of the Grace/Denon combo would be about 20hz, not good.

I don't follow your comment about the weight of the Shure and the position of the counter weight. The Shure at 6 grams is on the light side of average. This would put your counter weight closer to the pivot, not further out. Have you mounted the cartridge properly and is your arm intact and put together correctly? How are you measuring the tracking force?

In simple terms regarding compliance, low compliance (stiff suspension) cartridges like the Denon should normally be matched with high mass (heavier) arms. Conversely, high compliance (springy suspension) cartridges should be matched with low mass (lighter) arms. Fortunately, medium matches with medium.

I'm sorry if later posts sounded inconsistent with my first advice but I did not originally realize you would be using the 707. For that reason, I changed direction on you. Don't worry, we all have a learning curve.

But I am bothered by your statement that you're trying to adjust VTF (vertical tracking force) at 6 grams and your counterweight is far back on it's stub. First off, 6 grams is very heavy - a typical range would be 1.0 to 2.0 g., or 2.5 at most, with modern cartridges. Second, moving your counterweight toward the back will lighten the tracking force (remember childhood experience on a teeter-totter). I believe something is drastically wrong from your description. I suggest before asking any more questions you research cartridge set up on the A'gon, Vinyl Asylum, and Vinyl Engine. Again, good luck.