Tri-Planar with no anti-skate?

Found this quote on Audiokharma, from someone named "Marcmorin":

"...the higher the friction of the stylus in the groove the MORE skating will occur. Groove friction is the driving force behind the skating behavior. The mathematical derivations should make that clear. It's the friction of the groove pulling on the stylus that tries to turn the tonearm around its pivot towards the spindle. More friction = more turning effort (torque or moment). Less friction = less turning effort. Groove friction is directly proportional to VTF since it is VTF that presses the stylus against the groove. More VTF = more friction force = more antiskating required. Less VTF = less friction force = less antiskating required."

Note, skating force is proportional to groove friction, and groove friction is directly related to VTF. My memory neurons are still firing, thankfully.

Lewm, those of us who are removing our AS do not experience any distortion from one channel vs. the other. HOwever, I believe this will be cartridge dependent. It probably has to do with centering of the coils. This discussion is regarding the Triplanar. Other arms, YMMV. Even with the Triplanar, YMMV.

There is no right or wrong answer here, and I don't think this proves anything about HW's position on the need for AS. As Jonathan Carr has told us, the forces are there and they are acting on the stylus. The fact that some of us may prefer the sound with no AS doesn't mean it isn't needed.

As I stated, all cartridges I have tried on the Talea for example do sound better with a slight amount of AS, well below the VTF setting. I'm talking AS in the range of 1/3 to 1/2 gram. Anymore and the sound collapses.

My experience. YMMV, FWIW, etc.

Lewm: VTF may increase skating force but probably less than 1:1 ratio. Antiskate force is multifactoral and some portion of it is probably not modified by VTF.
I am saying that increase VTF reduces the nastiness generating by skating force. This is different than saying VTF reduces skating force. Even if VTF increased the skating force, the increase skating force is contending with a higher tracking force and therefore end result is less problematic gross mistracking. (Look at it as a vector with both magnitude and direction).

DanEd - My friend measured THD of the two channels using USB spectral analyzer while tinkering with antiskate and azimuth. Search Rick stereopal.

When I was using the minimal or no antiskate setting, I did not have any gross tracking problems. It is rather that the soundstage does not illuminate to the same degree in the right channel. For an orchestra, the first violinist and lead violist are still to the left and right. In the left channel, the recording ambience and the locations of the rest of the violinist are very apparent. In the right channel, the locations of the remaining violist, cellist are less specific in relation to the lead and the ambient clues are much less apparant. In an opera, when the singer is moving towards the back of the stage, the way the voice excite the boundary is apparent on the right but not so much on the left. I think these are due to increased THD in the right channel from inadequate antiskate. It obscured very subtle clues in the recording that provides the sense of space (boundary interactions, reverb).

I have used two triplanars, grahams in various length, centroid, dynavector 507, davinci, fidelity research and various cartridges. I find this relationship to hold true in most cases.

Regarding VPI various length with no antiskate, I have not owned them. I would share my experience with 12inch vs 9inch graham. I initially anticipated a lower antiskate setting on the dog leg when going from 9 to 12 inch. My anticipation came from less tracking error reduces skating force. While this is still true, the reduced skating force applies more torque towards the tonearm center from the added length. (Or the same setting on the dog leg applies less torque at the tip of arm). Reduced skating force but more torque ultimately landed me to the same setting at the dog leg.

I am still learning a lot of this and I may be wrong. All I am saying is that trying this method may yield better sound. Setting antiskate as a finally adjustment will lands you in the no to minimal antiskate setting because we just spent time optimizing everything without antiskate. Adding antiskate at the end is like throwing a wrench into it. VTF, azimuth, VTA needs to be redone to appreciate the advantages of proper antiskate setting.

(1) All I'm saying is skating force is proportional to VTF. The word "proportional" in a mathematical term only means that they increase or decrease in relation to one another, which relationship may not be perfectly linear.
(2) Just about any tonearm instructions I have ever seen from any manufacturer will advise setting AS at some value below that of VTF, so no one would argue with that, least of all me.
(3) Glai, I think it is more correct to say that MORE tracking error reduces skating force, not less. The whole reason we contend with skating force is because the headshell is offset at an angle to the arm tube to minimize tracking error. This is what generates the skating force. If the headshell is not offset at an angle to the arm tube, then there is no skating force but lots of tracking error. In a 12-inch tonearm, this effect is somewhat ameliorated compared to a 9-inch one. That was the rationale for the Nottingham 12-inch tonearm with no headshell offset.

I agree with you guys; I do use the very most minimal amount of AS necessary to overcome that R channel distortion and to give even channel balance. I am not sure what Glai was trying to convey in his discussion of imaging, but I think we agree; I hear the musicians kind of get squooshed together on the R side. My observation was made with my Triplanar, but I also observed similar phenomena with a Dynavector DV505. With the TP, I need to try the tiny O-ring idea.

I think the way in which the cartridge is a determinant of the need for AS is only due to differences in stylus tip shape and mass. Those factors affect groove friction. Groove friction and VTF are all that should matter, for a given offset angle of the headshell.

Thanks, Glai. I misread the USB oscilloscope. However, I am not sure I agree with everything you've stated because what we hear without the AS mechanism is an increase in detail, not less as would be the case if there was indeed some distortion taking place. The imaging and placement of artists in the soundstage tell me things are working very well. But I am not arguing that every Triplanar owner should do this. Some may like it, some may not.

I do agree with you that all of these adjustments are in relation to each other. I do not disengage AS to set the other parameters as has been recommended for many years. The more I listened and tweaked and learned I found I was getting just as good if not better results by taking them all into consideration at once.