Denon 103r ????

>>Geometry class is still in session.<<

Perhaps so, but that's not how SRA is referenced. It's not relative to the plane of the record surface. It's referenced relative to deviation from a true vertical line, said vertical line being 0.

>> I just wish the concept "sounded" good. I'm not hearing that. It sound consistently veiled and harsh to less so but still cloudy. <<

Yes, but this is because you used that cartridge in a too-light tonearm for that suspension to properly work against. Nothing about a conical stylus necessitates a vieled sound, and certainly not harsh. Harshness from a 103R is a sure sign something is wrong with your set-up.

>>No, it isn't. It is the CONTACT point of the stylus to the record surface drawn to the PIVOT point of the tone arm.<<

Well, technically, yes. But for practical purposes of simply differentiating VTA from SRA, the cantilever essentially defines the same.

>> I'll take a ninety percent improved field of choice over a very FEW conical styli that track light enough to offset the minimal contact surface. Show me your math on this one. Again, this is simple static’s and geometry at work. Sure, If I mistrack we are talking apples to oranges. I'm talking how the car behaves on the road, not in the ditch.<<

Since most record wear is not caused by vinyl compression derived from PSI differences at proper tracking force, it is the dysfunction of stylus chatter that should concern you. An Ortofon SPU properly set up for 3 - 4g VTF won't compromise your records. But a line contact rattling in the groove due to improper setup or too-low VTA will wreak havoc in the groove. PSI isn't the worry.

>>A cheap moving coil cartridge is not going to have the design effort that a better product has.<<

The only reason the 103R is cheap by today's standards is that it's basic architecture has been in production since 1962. Every cost was long ago amortized. Denon could easily put it in an exotic body and give it a more exotic cantilever and stylus, but hasn't. In part because they have put enough development into the 103 for it to be outstanding as-is. For more "design effort" they have the DL-S1, which easily competes with cartridges triple its price from smaller organizations.

>>The low compliance is but just ONE of the negatives thrown onto this product that in my listening, leave it inferior to the old 103D<<

As Ronald Reagan said, "There you go again." Low compliance isn't a negative. It's just a trait that demands proper matching to an appropriate tonearm. It's qualitatively neutral.

>>leave it inferior to the old 103D on ANY tonearm<<

No, sorry. If you put a 103D in an arm too heavy for its compliance, it will deteriorate as badly in different ways as a 103R does in a tonearm too light for it.

>>Glad you like to stop your listening there. You're saving a lot of money. <<

I don't. I listen to Zu103, 103R, 103D, 103M, 103FL, 305, plus Ortofon SPU Silver Meister and SPU Synergy, plus Signet TK9LC. And there'll be more.

>>You're kidding, right" I never knew Linda Rhonstadt was supposed to have been singing inside a felt box..my bad on that.<<

Well, she will if you put the cartridge in the wrong tonearm and further screw up the set-up.

>>At least the 103D was a good kind of haze, the 103r runs you into things trying to hear through the fog.<<

If your 103D has haze, then you have problems setting up TWO cartridges.

>>A conical stylus is far removed from the cutter heads geometry. It is a simplistic approach to a cheap product.<<

The cutting head is not the playing head. Many cartridge designers that try to get close to the shape and alignment of the cutting head produce awful sounding cartridges. There's nothing wrong with a conical stylus if it's part of a holistic design. All these transducers are imperfect. The designer must balance many attributes.

>>but to say it is the be all to end all is absurd, and say we who want better are "disparaging" a product you seem to take way too personal.<<

Look, the Denon is just one of many cartridges I've owned or own now. In fact, I had an AC-2 back when it was new and in production. Way back. I have cartridges more than 10X the cost of the 103R. I just prefer to see a good product represented properly. You can have your opinion of the sound, but when that's derived from listening to a cartridge under seriously mismatched and improper conditions, then your opinion isn't informed or actionable. I don't defend the 103 because it's inexpensive. But this cartridge, when properly installed, set-up and co-existing with the right amplification, can allow many music lovers of modest means to enjoy true high-end sound from their vinyl at an accessible price, or allow the better funded audiophile to shift resources into more expensive and excellent tonearm, table, signal amplification, etc., knowing that the source signal will be more than good enough to allow the analog chain to produce lively, realistic, toneful music. That you didn't get that result is understandable, given the errors in selection of associated gear.

The AC2 is a fine cartridge. If you are unwilling to change tonearms, you should enjoy it.

Phil

>>Increasing the arm's effective mass would theoretically lower these resonant points further - not necessarily desirable IMO, as they are already on the lower side of ideal.<<

Correct. But the Uwe body makes the whole cartridge much heavier than stock, so you've effectively raised the effective mass of the tonearm oving system above its nominal 14g eff mass rating, so you're listening to the 103R suspension and motor in a "heavier" tonearm already.

Can't say without being there. But a stock 103R in a 20g tonearm has given me resonance points no lower than what you cite. There may be other factors. But I'd expect a Uwe body 103R to sound beautiful in a Phantom II. In any case, 14g is better than the Rega's 12, for this cartridge, and it can sound good enough in the Rega.

Phil

>>But a line contact rattling in the groove due to improper setup or too-low VTA will wreak havoc in the groove.<<

No edit function here after posting. I meant to type, "...or too-low VTF..."

Have to agree with 213cobra that the 103R is one fine cartridge. I have compared it with some much more expensive cartridges, like the VDH Colibri Platinum and the Ortofon A90, in my system. Is the 103R as good as the other cartridges? No, it is not! But in a proper set-up, I really don’t feel deprived, or have any intense urge to switch back to the other cartridges, when I listen to the Denon. It is that good!

06-17-10: Thekong
Have to agree with 213cobra that the 103R is one fine cartridge. I have compared it with some much more expensive cartridges, like the VDH Colibri Platinum and the Ortofon A90, in my system. Is the 103R as good as the other cartridges? No, it is not! But in a proper set-up, I really don’t feel deprived, or have any intense urge to switch back to the other cartridges, when I listen to the Denon. It is that good!

Agreed, the Denon's faults are revolve more around deficiencies at the extremes and some shortcomings in imaging/soundstaging. It still sounds very good in these latter regards but very convincing in tone and texture - it sounds surprising good at midband detail too.