MC phono stage without transformer?

Dear Dougdeacon,

I havnt said that all solid state mc stages are bad, Im sure that there are a lot of good sounding units out there. I was really happy with my former Gryphon Orestes which was solid state. But besides things like dynamic, resolution etc. (where a lot of people put there attention on in separation) a high class MM tube phono stage and a high performance step up leave the music more intact than any phonostage I know (ASR, ARC, Gryphon...). Sure there is also a major influence of the MM stage in the preamp used. At least in my set up the build in phono stage in my preamp and a good step up are "better" than all the phono stages I used with the same preamp. I also have to say that the 7000,- Euro Gryphon (I had a all Gryphon system before going for tubes) was close but not on the same level in "giving music sense" as the tube step up combination. I just say this cause I cant stand people saying "transformers are crap" after hearing their 100$ Denon transformer...

What Ralph said is true and yes, all attempt to replay music at home is a comprise no matter how good the technology gets...on the way to the technological perfection it is often forgot about music, at least thats my feeling with a lot of highly acclaimed components I heard. For instance the highly regarded ASR Basis exclusive. It was a big disappointment. It had everything from frequncy extension, resolution dynamics etc and I'm sure it measured perfect..BUT it left me uninvolved and emotionally cold in the long run.

Sure transformers might be "old" technology and might not be the best choice for some modern high impedance carts but they can provide a sound that lets you focus more on music than on sound. By the way the Bent, as good as it is (I have also one, copper version), it is very "different" in the way it connects you with the music than a Kondo or Auditorium Hommage (my references for transformers).

Another contender for a high gain all tube phono stage is the Wavestream Kinetics fro Scott Frankland.

While I very much respect Raul's and Atmasphere's comments on the subject, and I agree that the subject is a complex one . . . it isn't terribly ambiguous, and there are some simple facts to the subject.

First, transformers and inductors are eschewed components in undergraduate EE design practices, and this is for sound, logical reasons. But their potential shortcomings have been very well researched over many decades, and they can be measured . . . and it is indeed possible to transparently apply a high-quality transformer to the task of a MC input stage.

Second, since when is an audio transformer an 'economy' or 'low-budget' component? Yes, a designer can save some time and effort by slapping an off-the-shelf transformer in front of an existing MM phono stage and calling it done . . . but if the product is designed in this manner, the transformer's shortcomings are likely to be only the tip of the iceberg. This is a problem of methodology, not philosophy.

Third . . . in a low-noise circuit, input stage noise will dominate, if the designer has done his/her job correctly. And low-impedance transducers (like a low-output MC cartridge) simply do NOT deliver their best noise performance when coupled directly to an input stage, especially one that uses JFETs or vacuum tubes. Now I understand and respect a design approach that tolerates a mismatch here to acheive other objectives, but in terms of noise performance for i.e. a 5-ohm phono cartridge, a well-executed transformer/autoformer input topology will ALWAYS perform best.

And finally, the biggest issue with improper cartridge loading has very little to do with the transformer or the lack thereof, but with the lack of standards and consistency among cartridge manufacturers. There is simply too much variation in cartridge design and manufacturing methods to be able to allow EVERY cartrige to work its best with a single type of phono preamp . . . a simple gain adjustment and loading resistor can only do so much. Kinda like finding ONE amp that will bring out the absolute best from EVERY speaker.

Dear Ron: In my case ( as I already posted on other threads ) I have in deep experiences with Audio Note whole products ( from the Ongaku through speakers, cartridges, SUTs, etc, etc ) due that the distributor here is a close friend of mine. I tested it ( SUTs ) in a whole audio Note system and in my system too.
I already owned almost every single ( top named ) SUT out there including Expressive Technology one.

I can asure you that I know exactly what I'm talking about, please don't have any doubt on the subject.

+++++ " a high class MM tube phono stage and a high performance step up leave the music more intact than any phonostage I know (ASR, ARC, Gryphon...). " +++++

I respect your opinion but like you say " that any phonostage you know ", well you don't know every one and certainly not the best integrated units ( tube or SS ): Phonolinepreamps that are the ones that I reference about quality performance against any SUT.

+++++ " with a lot of highly acclaimed components I heard. For instance the highly regarded ASR Basis exclusive. It was a big disappointment. " +++++

IMHO ( an no quibes against ASR ) " highly regarded " for people that does not care or does not know too much about music, that design is based on op-amps and can't represent a standard to compare with it.

Ron, till you hear the right Phonolinepreamp ( SS or tube one ) you are ( with all respect to you ) " out of base " trying to support the SUTs ( including what you own ) against a well designed active high gain Phonolinepreamp.

Ralph, some other people ( including me ) can do it because we have an in deep experiences about, maybe I'm wrong but at least I already try it.

You have to look to have the opportunity to test it and maybe after that you could think in a different way, you like me have the every day opportunity to learn something about music sound reproduction best quality performances.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Kirk: +++++ " Now I understand and respect a design approach that tolerates a mismatch here to acheive other objectives, but in terms of noise performance for i.e. a 5-ohm phono cartridge, a well-executed transformer/autoformer input topology will ALWAYS perform best. " +++++

I have to disagree with you here because IMHO that depends on the design, that btw we don't tolerate any mismatch at any single level " to achieve other objectives ".

+++++ " NOT deliver their best noise performance when coupled directly to an input stage, especially one that uses JFETs... " +++++

here I agree with you.

+++++ " There is simply too much variation in cartridge design and manufacturing methods to be able to allow EVERY cartrige to work its best with a single type of phono preamp .. " +++++

again it depends on the design.

+++++ " And finally, the biggest issue with improper cartridge loading has very little to do with the transformer or the lack thereof, but with the lack of standards and consistency among cartridge manufacturers... " +++++

that's another reason why the SUTs are not the best way to go.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.