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Our home system: How good it is?

My music sound philosophy/reference is the live music/event that unfortunately I can’t mimic on my system or in any other audio system that I heard. I always say that the very best we can achieve is to be nearer to the recording and even this target is a little “ elusive “ to get for say the least.

Through my audio life I heard a lot of different audio systems: I heard it on audio shows, on dealer rooms and on home people’s systems.

With out any doubt the best audio system performances that I already experienced were/are on home systems where I learn several subjects ( including the people music sound priorities ) and one-two of them are the in deep care in the SET UP of each link on the whole audio chain ( including room ). Some of high price systems that I heard it are not very good because its “ lesser “ care on the each link SET UP.

I want to share with all of you my latest experiences that I had 2-3 weeks ago when I visit some audio friends on USA.
I was exposed to 7 different home systems and I share with you my thoughts on only 4 of those home audio systems that I consider have nothing less but top/first rate performance and where I really enjoy the music.

First than all I want to say that all those audio friends were very gentle and with a very high sense on hospitality: thank you in deep to every one for that I really appreciate it in every way including your very value time that you take/give me.

The best subject during my visit to each one of those great people was to know/meet them: meet people with an in deep knowledge on music ( music lovers more than hardware lovers.), with in deep audio experiences, with in deep know how on their each priorities, with in deep care on whole room-system SET UP, with a great software, with an open mind to share and to accept different points of view, with in deep understanding that there are no perfect systems, with a “ humility “ attitude that it is a must to have to grow-up and with the enjoy “ feeling “ of music listening.

This was a very rare opportunity that I enjoy it and that I know I was so lucky about: Thank you again to all of you!!!!

In no order of preference here it is:

HOUSTON: Fred’s place with a dedicated audio room. Acapella big Triolon speakers, Einstein front end electronics, Rockport/Titan i analog rig, Nordost, JC-1s amps, etc.

When the first music note comes from this system you know that it is something special and after a few minutes you forgot about the hardware and start to enjoy fully the software ( either analog/digital ).
The system is so easy to transmit the music “ feelings/emotions “ and let that the sound/music flow directly to your mind.

Those Triorlon are really great and my hat off to Acapella people because they blend three different speaker drivers in an almost perfect mix. I don’t like ( but the immediacy ) horns ( I heard many of them ) and the Triorlon’s has two of them in the midrange frequency range and I have to say that these horns are the lower horn-signature that I ever heard, the mid bass/bass are moving coil drivers and the Plasma tweeter is ( probably ) the speaker star but with out saying “ I’m here “, like I say almost perfect driver blend.

BOISE: Steve’s place with a dedicated audio room. MBL 111 speakers, custom made Berning’s monoblock amplifiers, Technics SP10 MK3 with a Steve self design/build gorgeous plinth with Schroeder Reference tonearm and strain gauge cartridge/front end by Soundsmith and Lyra Olimpos.

This was my three time that I heard MBL speakers and my first time on a home system: what a difference!!!!, these system/speakers are so near the real music that, like in Fred’s system, the only think that you want is to hear music and more music: LP after LP and again!!!!

Those custom made amplifiers are very good match to the MBL’s and has the lower coloration of tube-signature amplifier I ever heard. I know that the MBL speakers are not easy/friendly with tube electronics and in this system everything is on target, of course that Steve’s hand on this count a lot for that.

I experienced here two different quality performance sound: the Soundsmith one ( that is good ) and a MC cartridge one. I have to say that the Soundsmith rig was only 20-30 hours from new and even Steve was “ playing “ with the set-up. Anyway IMHO that day the Lyra quality performance was way better and I enjoy it for many hours. With this MC cartridge things ( great things ) come out specially the non-sense audio system: disappear!, I had only the LP music performance: great performances.

DALLAS: Louis’s place with a dedicated audio room. Kharma Exquisite 1A speakers, CAT’s monobloks ( new ones: 30 hours on it. ), Lamm/Aesthetix front end electronics, Garrad 301/Triplanar/Xv-1and Technics SP-10MK3/SME/Air Tight both with a custom made wood plinths and the 301 with a custom made power supply.

First thing you note at Loui’s place is that huge room, the biggest I ever know ( maybe 2.3 times the Steve or Fred ones that are big. ) in a home stereo system.

Here I think that the stars are those 550 pound each speakers and its room good integration ( not an easy task ). Like the other systems this one is different but really good. This is my second time hearing Kharma speakers and I have to say that are very very good performers.

The whole sound is a refined/sophisticated one where you or anyone are asking for more, not more quality but more time to heard/hear and enjoy music. I was surprised by the 301 rig quality performance ( where I know very well the XV-1 quality. ): first rate, I can’t hear any coloration that I can/could say: “ that’s was the 301 “.

As good as I heard that system Louis told me that through his Lamm amplifiers ( SE 15-18 watts ) the quality of the system’s sound is a step higher!!, unfortunately I can’t hear it with these amplifiers. Anyway a pleasure to hear it on the Cats.

SAN DIEGO: Mark’s place with out a dedicated audio room ( the system belongs to the sitting room ). Revel speakers, Threshold amplifier, Hovland front end electronics and Raven/Triplanar/Ruby 2.

It seems the “ modest “ system on the group but a top quality performer where we know immediately the very hard work that Mark made to achieve that high quality performance. I know very well the Ruby 2 and in this system is something to hear.
Here there is no single “ star “ but a very good set up of audio items group that sounds a lot better that some very high price systems that I heard, money means nothing at all with out whole/overall knowledge.

As different as are all these audio system all them share common things: system whole synergy, when you heard it you know everything is there ( soundstage, good tonal balance, inner detail, transparent, fast response, dynamics, etc, etc, ), nothing is telling you “ I’m here “ ( very well balance ), sounds good with different kind of music and at different SPL levels, you can heard it for many hours and enjoy every minute, etc, etc.

Are these audio system “ perfect “ ?, certainly not: nothing is. Their owners ( all of them ) already know that they have “ land “ to improve and more important that this fact is that all them know where to improve.

Something to “ ask “ to these systems?, well as you know I’m for full range ( octave to octave ) audio systems and if I put really exigent then I can say that all these system “ miss “ the last bass octave/half octave. This bass octave is system/room dependent and speaker design specification dependent: non of those speakers were designed to achieve that low bass frequency range with the same high quality of the other frequency ranges.
Anyway I can say that I never feel the necessity of that bass octave during all those many hours of music pleasure hearing all those audio systems.

It is a nice thing to learn, through other home audio system listening experiences, if what we have at home is in the right “ road “ and this fact help all of us to grow up in the quest of home audio music sound reproduction heaven.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Ag insider logo xs@2xrauliruegas
learsfool
1,215 posts
 
Jim, I think I would have to hear what you were talking about exactly, particularly since I am not sure how you are defining your term "tonal balance" in this context. I don't know what you listened to at his store, and I have not heard the Legacy Focus, so I can't comment specifically.

Everyone hears a little differently, and has different tastes. For me, only floorstanding speakers can truly produce realistic sounding bass. I have never heard a smaller speaker that could, excellent though some are in every other respect. As far as subwoofers go, though, quite frankly I have never heard one I liked for music listening. I have always found any system including a subwoofer to sound artificial, as far as reproducing the sound of acoustic music is concerned (not that ANY system truly recreates the sound of live music). I just don't think a subwoofer is necessary to reproduce the "weight," as you call it, of the lowest notes of acoustic instruments, even the pipe organ. Now if you are talking electronically produced music, or a film soundtrack that includes very low frequencies (non-musical in origin, I mean), then a subwoofer does become necessary for realistic reproduction, and I would certainly want one in a home theater system. But I would never use one for two-channel listening, so I would venture to guess that our tastes may not be the same. Of course that doesn't mean you are incorrect about your violinist dealers systems. And there are other factors than those we have mentioned, room acoustics being a big example.
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rauliruegas OP
13,084 posts
 
Dear Learsfool/Jimjoyce25: +++++ " Everyone hears a little differently, and has different tastes. " +++++

+++++ " I am not sure how you are defining your term "tonal balance" in this context. " +++++

+++++ " I just don't think a subwoofer is necessary to reproduce the "weight," as you call it, of the lowest notes of acoustic instruments, even the pipe organ. " +++++

+++++ " Sitting in an audience, a drum played softly seems to have a very different weight or forcefulness or "ominousness" from a softly played violin. " +++++

+++++ " Bass parts can be very complex and very delicate, but at the same time the signature weight IMO is always there. " +++++

+++++ " I get the sense that a number of otherwise very demanding audiogoners don't have extended low bass in their systems," +++++
+++++ " To me it's very important to the music. " +++++

For years to now I attend every single week to an acoustic music live event ( mostly classical. ), I love music like everyone on this forum.

I agree that everyone of us hears a little different and that has different tastes and as a result the " tonal balance/timbre " subject could be different on any one of us but IMHO and everything the same it exist one right " tonal balance/timbre " where everything is right on target and where what we are perceiving through our whole " body " not only seems " natural " but has the overall rightness of the music

How to be sure that all of us can /could understand what really means the right " tonal balance/timbre " ?, very hard to say and very complex subject that depend on many other subjects.

First than all that our ears are a healthy ones with no " anomalies " other than the age natural loss, that we have enough experience ( better in deep ) on both: acoustic live and amplified type music, that we have enough experience and understanding on audio home systems ( different ones ) and its room interaction, that we understand the differences between distortion/colorations ( any ) and accuracy non-distorted/non-colored sound home system reproduction ( here the subject is not what we like but what is right like it or not ), that we own an audio system that " permits " identify overall what has the " rightness " and what does not ( I can go on and on on this but for today it could be enough on it ).

From the last paragraph/sentences IMHO I think that almost all the people that have the same or similar overall experiences on live music and audio level can/could agree the same for " tonal balance/timbre " subject when are hearing the same track on an analog recording and can/could agree with the " rightness " or not of that recording passage.

Over the years and through my experiences " talking " about music and audio subjects with several audio friends ( Agoner's or not ) where I already hear/heard their home audio systems I almost always agree with those that have the same/similar/near overall " know-how " level than mine and it does not matter that our " tastes " on kind of music we all normally hear.
So maybe here ( I can't say for sure ) you Learsfool , as you point out, are really different from Jimjoyce25 not only for what both posted but from your " origin " and from the very different home system each one own.

Now taking the " low bass " subject there are several aspect around it that both of you " touch " and other that you don't:

IMHO every single instrument frequency range is perceived by our ears/brain/body with its own " weight "/timbre, that " weight " that almost always we asociate with the low bass it is only part of the " timbre " of that low bass instrument(s) frequency range at a specific SPL, btw to any musical acoustic instrument.

Affirm that we don't need a subwoofer to reproduce the " weight " of the lower notes could be a misunderstood or non experiences about with a good subwoofer/audio system, a true stereo active subwoofers integration to almost any home audio system IMHO it improves not only the quality low bass performance but many other parts of the whole quality performance on that home audio system. Please take a little of your time reading this:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153

Learsfool, IMHO and with all respect: till you or any one else hear the right subwoofers/audio system set up you not only can't talk ( with facts ) about but you can't imagine and can't know what you are missing!!!!

I already heard many different home audio systems including several great Agoner's ones. In these Agoner's systems I agree with Jimjoyce25: " don't have extended low bass in their systems, " and certainly all of them are missing the paramount glorious experience of a good subwoofers set up: IMHO nothing comes close to that marvelous and unique experience.

As a fact I only heard one audio system that I can name it: a right subwoofers/audio system set up and this system does not comes from Agoner's. Yes, I think that the right subwoofers set up is the " stray link " that to all of us can make that our home audio system really shine and really give us a full enjoyment over what we have today.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
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rauliruegas OP
13,084 posts
 
Dear Learsfool: This post on subwoofers is part of the subwoofer thread:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27

you can read too through that thread the posts that start with: " Dear friends: "

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
learsfool
1,215 posts
 
Raul, that thread is fascinating - I just read through the entire thing, including a couple of the external links. I will admit that I have never heard such a system as yours and some of the others described. None of my friends/family that are audiophiles have subwoofers in their music systems, and I have always thought of them as being appropriate only for home theater. Perhaps I would change my mind upon hearing such a system as you describe - the possibility is intriguing. I am a little dubious of the claims that subs would improve or "clear up" higher frequencies, however. To use a different example, sometimes when digital processor designers speak of trying to do things like this in their designs, their efforts end up unintentionally removing natural overtones that are a fundamental part of instrumental timbres, thus creating a "clean" but definitely false sound. Perhaps this comparison is completely off-base, though certainly all of the crappy (for two-channel music, that is) home theater type subs I am familiar with don't come close to properly re-creating timbres of acoustic instruments, and this is what I meant in my previous post when I said they have always sounded artificial to me. Also, all of the home-theater subs I have heard in a two-channel system have very negatively affected the soundstage and imaging. Clearly, placement of them would be critical. Please understand I am not disagreeing with you or saying it is not possible, just that I have never heard it - it is indeed very possible that I have only heard bad and/or improperly set-up ones. It would be interesting to hear a system including subs with dedicated amps set up as you and others described in that thread. As you say, I would have to hear it for myself to judge, and I will definitely try to explore this issue further - thanks very much for posting that link.
dgob
848 posts
 
Learsfool,

If it helps, I think the RD Hardesty article that is cited by Raul on the second page of the sub thread (07.02.05) really explains a lot about improvements in the top end and entire frequency range. I can say that if you play something with deep bass and/or organ you can really hear this emphasised. Gary Karr (Bass) and Harmon Lewis (Organ) on the Adagio d'Albonini (Gold CD) and any decent vinyl performance of Back's Toccata and Fugue in D minor will say it all in this set up: at least this has been my experience in my environment and with my equipment.
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