More convinced of analog than ever

02-06-09: Hdm
I'm curious with respect to the Ayre prototype table; I know that Ayre has a
very strong committment to balanced operation in their electronics. Did the
table/tonearm lead happen to utilize a balanced configuration?

It never occurred to me to ask that. I did find out
that the proto was running an Ayre-modified RB300 with different damping
and (I think) internal wiring. It was fitted with a Lyra Skala. Ayre's two main
contributions to the turntable are the arm modification and integration, and a
really nice outboard power supply and speed control. The entire electronic
chain from there including the phono stage was Ayre.

02-06-09: Tvad
Playback quality is more dependent on recording quality than it is playback
medium.

Generally I agree. On this particular night,
however, the system setups were heavily slanted toward digital. There were 6
demo rooms and only one had a turntable, and that was a prototype, and
nothing as impressive as what the store carries (SME 30, for example). The
digital demos all had very high quality recordings, some dubbed from master
tapes and several that were bit-for-bit server-based 24/96 renditions of live
recordings. These were stunning and dynamic in many ways, and as I said,
the 24/88 and 24/96 recordings were more realistic and musically involving
(to me) than the redbook. I heard redbook CDs played by the top offerings
from Audio Research and Ayre. I didn't hear the Linn room, but I'd heard
SACDs on a Linn just 2 years ago at the same store.

OTOH, the LPs we heard were almost desultory by comparison. No direct-to-
discs, no MoFi LPs, several recordings from the '50s. One was just a $10
Original Jazz Classics reissue of Miles Davis'
"Workin'."

02-06-09: Tketcham
So how were the presentations? Anything new and interesting?

Oh, yeah! Magnepan had a prototype speaker setup
that just slayed! They have a small floor-standing woofer that uses the 20.1
bass technology. It only goes down to about 40 Hz, but the quality is very
high and has great slam and clarity. The amazing thing is that the panel has a
response up to around 7kHz, so integration with the satellites is very natural
and fairly simple. The satellites were about 10"x12" panels that
were like miniature 3.6's. With an iTunes-based server feeding a Peachtree
Audio integrated/DAC pushing several external amps, this rig produced the
most realistic-sounding drums I've ever heard on an audio system. I'm a
drummer. In fact, I'm sitting 5 feet from my vintage Slingerland/Avedis
Zildjian drum set as I type this.

Ayre had the turntable I already mentioned, and I heard the Wilson MAXX 3's,
which sounded wonderful pushed by big ARC amps, and come much closer to
the Alexandria series 2 than the previous version.

02-06-09: Musicslug
I was also at that event but came away with a different conclusion. I'm all
about LPs, but the digital playback was pretty amazing - even the non hi-rez.
granted, all the gear was cost-no-object, but both the Ayre and Linn digital
gear (the kind that you run off a hard drive) were orders of magnitude better
than any digital I've ever heard.

I agree with your
digital assessment--it's the best-sounding digital I've probably ever heard,
especially the server-based 24/88 and 24/96 sources feeding the
ARC/Wilson and Ayre/Magnepan/JL systems. But when all was said and done,
as good as digital has gotten (and its ability to retrieve ambience and
resonance ) I still felt more at ease and enjoyed the music more when the LPs
were playing.

02-07-09: Shadorne
Yawn. Sure. Hang on ...let me grab some popcorn. Repeat everyone all
together
now the mantra.... "Analog is good, no matter how cheap. Digital, no
matter
how expensive, is always bad."

Never said that,
never meant to imply that. Audio reproduction is always imperfect and people
will invariably prefer digital or analog depending on what are the most
subjectively significant factors in sound quality. I don't want to like LPs more.
I listened to digital exclusively for 20 years. LPs are a hassle in so many ways.
But if I'm honest with myself about how I feel when I listen to music, I prefer
the sound of LP playback.

There will come a time when digital equals or exceeds analog in every way,
but for me it's not quite there yet. I'm wondering if it'll take 30 bits to satisfy
me, or maybe 26. 26 would be a four-fold increase in amplitude resolution
over 24-bit.

I have a pretty decent digital rig (Esoteric X03 SE) and enjoy random playlists through the Squeezebox/Benchmark DAC - it is a treat to just hear hours of great music without getting up-and it does sound awesome, but there is just something extra special about vinyl. No big expensive turn table (VPI Jr, modded, w/Benz Glider & decent phono stage) BUT vinyl is just more involving. I have some great CD (and SACD) recordings which do narrow the gap, but once you put an LP on and cue it up, it's just...better. I love my CD/SB and do play alot but when I want to hear a great musical presentation, it's vinyl. It's a pain, and takes time to clean a disc, and you need to check set up at times but there is a real diference.

I fought getting a CD player for years and then ws given a Yamaha CD player - I remember buying CD's of all my vinyl - now I am looking for vinyl of all my CD's.

I will agree that an inexpensive (ok, cheap) TT (the mainstream garbage people think are turn tables-complete with USB output) won't rival an expensive CD player--but a properly set up decent turntable with a good cartridge/phono stage will easilly rival a multi-thousand dollar CD rig. Hey, there's a ton of posts touting the Oppo CD player - if it makes you happy, go for it, but has anyone actually compared the Oppo to a CD rig costing a few grand more? The key is "properly set up TT". It's not just plug and play. Spend some time and get it right and it's...magical.

I wonder when this debate will finally die? I am guessing soon.

Digital is getting better almost every year. Not to say analogue has not got better too, but at this rate analogue will be confined to the history books quite soon with only the most stubborn of old audiophiles staying with it.

Name anyone under the age of 25 who is interested in a TT. The ipod generation will laugh at you with your room full of LPs or think it quaint.
And while the analogue brigade will laugh at the ipod generation they wont be laughing for long. Its called progress. All this stuff will trickle down into 1 chip that costs nothing and has staggering sound quality. Downloads will be uncompressed at the sample rate it was recorded at. None of the dithering to 44.1k and so on.

We have reached a point where sonically all the analogue colorations you like can be modeled anyway in the digital domain. The latest offerings in the pro world are amazing. The control is precise and totally transparent.

I dont understand why it seems you are either for digital or analogue. Who cares? If it sounds good it sounds good.

Of course I understand toys for the boys, but surely we all want music to be played back with the highest possible life like quality, with no hassles, and on demand. The rest is BS and posturing.

Never said that, never meant to imply that.

Then I suggest you re-read your initial post starting from the title "More convinced of Analog than ever" with its description of how you heard the latest best possible digital has to offer and found it wanting and fatiguing.

But if I'm honest with myself about how I feel when I listen to music, I prefer the sound of LP playback.

At least be honest with yourself about what you imply in your own statements.

I am convinced that analog hangs in there for basically two reasons. First, it can sound amazingly good in a best case scenario when everything in the system is properly addressed. Secondly, analog can 'look awesome' with these over-the-top turntables, J-Corders, record cleaners, etc. I suppose I should also add that audiophiles may have large collections of LPs and Reel tapes. Bottom line though is the question of overall absolute performance being on the analog or digital side?? My experience is that DIGITAL IS BEST because of the fact that analog is always fighting a losing war with signal-to-noise. Playing an album degrades it some no matter what the circumstanes. Same thing for reel tape or any other analog storage medium. Age, dust, humidity, light, human touch; you name it and it takes it's toll on analog. Not so with Digital where the thousandth playing is basically as good as the first. And the first can be essentially equal or better than that of analog at the starting point short of master tapes and direct-to-disk LPs and a penchant for spending your inheritance on a dying technology.