Tri-planar vs Graham

Hi Doug,

The harmonics/ringing issue makes sense to me. I did't hear that with his front end in your system with your Doshi. I didn't hear it with his Doshi in my system. The Doshi did'nt sound that good in my sytem. Ian is the third owner of that unit in a year or so, so perhaps it needs to go back to Nick for evaluation. Those listening that day attributed it, I think, to a mismatch (impedence?)with my Pass amps and not my system's inability to reproduce/capture harmonics. It seems to do that pretty well, though maybe not quite to the level of your wonderful system. At least no one mentioned that at the time. Perhaps Dan_Ed could elaborate?

The point of my question is this: I just didn't know which of Ian's few preamps you catagorically consider "first class". I now understand that to be the Doshi Alaap. He has had a few other preamps in the system - ARC Ref 3, H2O Fire, Pass Labs XP-20, to name three. I don't know exactly when he had them relative to the Doshi. Do you consider them all to be "second class" and the Doshi to be in a leaugue of its own? That would be an interesting, and somewhat unique, opinion it seems to me. Just curious to what you were referring when you made that assertion. That's all. Thanks, Peter

Peter,

as you have probably experienced, no other preamp sounds as good as a PASS preamp with PASS amps. What I heard with the Alaap in your system was not ringing. In fact it was just the opposite as I told you in an email. There maybe the first couple of harmonics coming through, but the rest are squashed into one impulse response or tossed out all together. This is just one other approach to music reproduction and it yields a quiet, pleasant rendering of music. I believe that Ian stated at the time he was using the same amps as you, IIRC.

I'm going by what Ian thought and what I can find online but it appears that the Pass amps are all 30kOhms input impedance which would account for the claims of the Alaap sounding rolled off. That is a less than ideal impedance match. The Alaap is pretty generic in loading and will work quite well with a load of greater than 50kOms, with higher loads even more desirable.

Now, my bass horn rolls off pretty fast below 25 Hz so I can't show an RTA plot of the frequency response that would mean much to this discussion. However, I recently brought in a pair of speakers that I helped acquire for a friend. The frequency response of these is well into the upper teens on the LF side when driven by my Alaap and Lectron amps. That Alaap, with the exception of some mechanical switch issue, is perfectly fine.

I might be mistaken but I think the Pass amps drop down to 15kOhms input impedance when using SE.

Peter,

When I suggested Ian’s other preamps were less than first-class, I was of course referring to the two I’ve actually heard. I didn’t know he owned any others, including the three you mentioned.

I didn't know you’d tried his Alaap in your system. I couldn’t comment even if I did know, since I wasn’t there to hear it. :-)

Dan_Ed wrote, regarding the Alaap in your system:

What I heard with the Alaap in your system was not ringing. In fact it was just the opposite as I told you in an email. There maybe the first couple of harmonics coming through, but the rest are squashed into one impulse response or tossed out all together. This is just one other approach to music reproduction and it yields a quiet, pleasant rendering of music.

This sounds like what I've heard from much very good SS gear, not to mention many well regarded speakers with soft dome tweeters, one or two very popular cartridges and a vast number of interconnects and cables.

Harmonics that are tossed out altogether are at least bearable (to my ears and Paul's). Harmonics squashed together will send both of us (especially him) flying from the room in literal pain.

Arthur Salvatore introduced a new sonic parameter in his (long) review of his new favorite speakers, the Coincident Pure Reference. He called it "individuation", meaning the ability of a component or system to allow the listener to identify individual voices and instruments during even highly complex passages.

A component which tosses harmonics out makes individuation difficult or impossible. If the stereo plays an "A" and all you hear is the 440Hz fundamental sine wave, you won't know if it was a clarinet, a violin or a human.

A component which squashes harmonics together individuates even worse, since it not only disguises each voice but also mushes voices together when they're playing or singing in concert. Listen to a live choir without electronic amplification. You don't hear an alto voice, a soprano voice, a tenor voice. You hear Mary and Joan and Fred, hopefully singing in harmony, but always as individuals.

Paul and I have been seeking greater individuation from our system for years (without having particularly named it). It is one of our primary criteria for deciding whether any component, tweak or adjustment is an improvement or not. Any component, tweak or adjustment which damages individuation is a downgrade by our priorities. Others listen differently of course. Even Dan, with whom we agree on most things audio, once said he didn't give a d@#% what a harpsichord sounded like or whether his system could reproduce it well. He might think differently now, I don't know, but if a system can reproduce a harpsichord really well (a fiendishly difficult challenge, harder than piano in some ways) then it's probably capable of reproducing nearly anything well.

Heh! We went to a symphony concert the other night and the sound of the Steinway, from just 9-10 rows back, made me despair of ever getting any stereo to work right. The Steinway wasn't even set up properly, but it still embarasssed the best our system can do. I once set up a new rig for George Walker, the Pulitzer prize winning composer. After 5 hours of work I spun up a piano LP and (foolishly) asked him if it didn't sound more real than his old rig. "Well", he replied, "it sounds better. But it still doesn't sound like my Steinway to ME." He proceeded to demonstrate, playing us a piece he'd written 60 years earlier (he was nearly 90 at the time). He was right, obviously.

Dan and Doug,

Thank you each for your clear explanations. I think I understand what you're talking about now. I have not really identified the importance of harmonics as such in my set of sonic priorites (I just listened to the piano hammer-strikes and decays and overal tone), but you both (and Paul) have me interested now in recognizing specific sonic attributes and learning the vocabulary. I like Salvatore's term "individuation" and I have glimpsed what he means since I upgraded my cartridge and preamp, especially when listening to grouped voices on classical recordings, but also to my recent favorite LP, Muddy Water's "Folk Singer". Incredible Blues guitar and mood. Always something to learn and enjoy.

I appologize to Ian for having highjacked his thread about arm choices. Sorry Ian.

Peter