stock denon 103 vs. zu for my vintage rig

The Denon 103's longevity is testimony to its' value and QPR despite the "opinions" of some posters.

It is clearly superior to many MM available today despite what you might read here.

IMO

Dealer disclaimer: I sell both MM and MC cartridges.

If the PL-50 is the one I am thinking of from 1980 or so (rosewood veneer -
looks like a mini Exclusive P3), and the arm is not damaged, I would not think
the issue is with your table by itself, but suggest it is with cart (which is in my
opinion one of the few carts I would call 'brutish' - the VTF can easily be set
without a scale). I remember the integrated (there was a 9900 as well), but do
not remember whether it had the ability to take MC carts. Thought not.

The DL-103 and 103R are 8.5g, which assuming a 10g headshell is right in
the sweetspot of what the arm can handle (arm good for 14g-24g including
headshell); I think the DL103R is a great cart for the money if you are buying
a new cart (or can find it used), and I have heard of enough people who have
had success either nuded or repotted in a different shell that it might be
worth a try. It is, unfortunately, deserving of a decent head-amp (or SUT) and
I do not know how the Pioneer deals with those - and of course that would be
extra money. Some of the MM carts mentioned in that thread Raul mentioned
are really quite good. I have been reasonably impressed by a Technics
205CMk3 and a Garrott P77 (and a NOS Technics 100CMk2 I bought a while
ago has beaten them both). It has to be noted though that at that price
range, all carts have a 'flavor', including the Denon 103.

You can also try the arm both with and without damping oil to see how it
works. The other thing I have noticed with the PL-50 (I have a PL-50L) is that
it is significantly improved by using a lightweight isolation platform.

Non-Dealer Disclaimer: I have too many tables and carts and some of them I
will be trying to sell off in the not too distant future (probably including the
PL-50L, and possibly some of the carts mentioned).

T-Bone,
As it happens, the PL-50 designation was re-used by Pioneer. The one I have is the "first" model, from the early '70s. It features a lovely and massive wood plinth, belt drive, and S-tonearm.

It looks very similar to the PL-41, except for its semi-automatic operation. From what I understand, this is a solid unit, which, properly set-up, can sound quite good, though it's by no means a true audiophile table.

Thank you all for the detailed responses! This has been a most helpful discussion.

Narkleptic, thanks for letting me know. I didn't know of that PL-50 model. I am
familiar with the PL-41.

I have a stock DL103 on my Thorens TD160. I am using it with a Denon AU300LC step up transformer and I'm very very happy with it. I use a Pro-ject Tube Box II phono stage on MM setting, along with the Denon transformer. When I take the Denon transformer out of the chain and switch the Pro-ject to MC setting, it is still good but not quite the same. I love the full, up-front sound of the DL103. I would try it before spending more.