DBP-10 Protractor Instructions......

I have read Raul's posts for the past three years or more, exchanged personal messages with him, and had the pleasure of meeting him in person when he visited my city. I believe he has been one of the most valued posters on Audiogon in sharing his information and experiences.

However, I must agree with Dougdeacon that Raul overstepped the bounds of decency with his accusations against Yip and the Mint protractor.

I have never used a Mint protractor but people I respect love using it and the sonic results. Yip could advertise his protractors (one example) as "made specifically for 223 mm spindle to pivot arms" or as "made specifically for VPI JMW 9 arms". Either statement would be true, but which is most consumer friendly? Everyone should know the make and model of their arm but I'll guess not everyone knows the effective length.

Another point, one can find free protractors on the internet just as Raul suggests. But I can't believe they are as easy to use (therefore potentially not as accurate) as one with thinly etched markings on a reflective surface. Many people are willing to pay for convenience. The Mint would only be dishonest if it did not produce an accurate set up for its chosen alignment.

Dear friends: IMHO there are several ways to deceive or to be dishonest with other people that buy an item/device: one is an active way telling or give the people wrong information, other is to on purpose give a not clear/confuse information and other is a passive one that is not telling/give the people the whole information.

In the Mint website you can read: " the template is tailor-made for a particular TT/tonearm set up. Using it on other set up will result in error and damage to the cartridge stylus "

In no place over the website tell you that that " tailor-made " protractor can be used in the same precise way with that same TT but with a different pivot tonearm that has the same effective length or even with a different TT that has the same spindle diameter.

So IMHO he at least is using a " passive " way not given the whole information to his customers.

He posted: +++++ " The above accusation assumes people who buy from me are ignorant and naive. Yes I have many new entrant users but my guess is over 85% of my users are very well experienced in analogue playing and they really know what they want. " +++++

I know that at least in this forum the 90% of the people has very low knowledge on the whole subject.
There are several threads where this subject was on discussion and where any one can read that the majority of the persons has very low know how, even in this thread I know that except one person all the other ones till a few months had low knowledge about.

In this thread we have examples of that low know-how:

+++++ " is constantly evolving and the thought of having to possibly buy a new protractor for over 100 bucks every time my system changes is not the direction I wanted to go " ++++

well not exactly, only if change the effective length on the tonearm or spindle diameter in the TT.

+++++ " Sure the Mint is useless once you change your tonearm, " +++++ ( same as the above.

+++++ " Baerwald-based protractors minimize the tracking error across the entire record, on the other hand. " +++++

wrong assumption: Baerwald minimize errors only out the null points but inside are higher.

I can take some other examples of some of you that posted in other threads to see how the knowledge is still to low in the whole subject.

So that " assumption " that " 85% of my users are well experienced ... " is only an " utopia " or a " convenient " answer.

He posted too:

+++++ " I do put up a warning on the Best Tractor to make sure new entrants would not use a wrong tractor for a wrong tonearm which can have tragic outcome.

But I believe 99% of my users know what is meant by Effective Length " ++++++

where in that " warning " he speaks about effective length?, no where: why is he " reserving " that critical and valuable information for the customers?

There are so many factors on tonearm/cartridge geometry algorithms set up that I think that only a few persons really understand in deep and really know what they want. many of you are best knowledge in the subject today that six months ago and that's because we learn here in agon through different threads with the subject on discusion.

It is very easy to add in the Mint website: you can use the same Mint protractor with different TT/tonearms if does not change the tonearm effective length or the TT spindle diameter .

I don't care if he will do it or not, what I care is that all of you that are interested and the people that read the thread can be aware about and can understand in a better way the whole subject for when they ask for a Mint protractor they ask in precise way what they want it.

Dear friends: from my point of view when one person is not disclosing all the pertinent information for I can decide and buy any item/device and because of that I buy something that I really don't need or that does not fullfill what I want IMHO that person is a " dishonest " person or: what is the word or right word that any of you can use on this subject?, for me " dishonest " but if you have any better then please post it.

Please remember that that protractor is on sale through internet that needs more specific information where the seller " disclose " every detail on the product.

I'm with and in the customer side and I'm not arguing or questioning if the Mint protractror works or not or if the protractor owners are happy or not, these is not the main discuss subject.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Raul,
I have no doubt that your knowledge of all analog related topics surpasses mine, but I do take exception to a few things you said in your last response using what I wrote in an attempt to support your argument.

++++ " Sure the Mint is useless once you change your tonearm, " +++++ ( same as the above.

My statement was based on the assumption that the change is to a tonearm with a different effective length making a particular protractor no longer suitable for the new tonearm. It is perhaps my fault that I did not make it explicit, but you wrongly assumed that my knowledge was "low in the whole subject." I assure you it is not and I assure you, if I had the spare time on my hands, I would find misstatements in your posts, or grammatical mistakes making your statement erroneous. Especially the latter would not be that difficult.

+++++ " Baerwald-based protractors minimize the tracking error across the entire record, on the other hand. " +++++

wrong assumption: Baerwald minimize errors only out the null points but inside are higher.

I can take some other examples of some of you that posted in other threads to see how the knowledge is still to low in the whole subject.

This is taken out of context and is misleading. I made this statement in the context of Mike from VPI recommending the Mint over the VPI jig based upon a person's listening habits and preferences and the general goal behind making the respective protractors. I was not participating in a technical discussion on the different algorithms used in making cartridge alignment protractors and the results they render. There is a difference.

Lastly, I am a novice compared to many here on Audiogon when it comes to analog, no doubt. However, I never even for one second thought I needed a different Mint protractor for every tonearm even if the parameters of the two tonearms are the same. It's just common sense to me. Also, from what I have seen, very few, if any, two tonearms have identical mounting distances and effective lengths. Most tonearm swaps would likely result in the need for a different protractor. That's what I took it to mean on the Mint website and I think that's what most of us mean when they use the phrase. I don't believe Yip was deliberately trying to mislead buyers. He's extremely responsive and offers a very high level of customer service. If you lack common sense or are a complete novice, just ask. Yip cannot anticipate every single question and hold every customer's hand. I'd rather see his warning that is straightforward and to the point, rather than him ignoring the risk of cartridge damage, or him going into long explanations on his website about mounting distances, overhangs and effective distances. There are plenty of resources on these subjects already out there.

Dear Actusreus: Thank's for your explanation, good to know that I'm wrong and that almost everyone has the right knowledge on the whole subject.

Just a question for Mint protractor owners: when you receive the Mint protractor and re-set the cartridge/tonearm set up do you change the pivot tonearm position?

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Raul,

No need to be sarcastic. I only spoke for myself. I don't quite understand your question as my Scout tonearm does not allow any adjustment of the "pivot tonearm position," but regardless, I think this thread has been hijacked enough and I'm going to end my debate right here. Peace.