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Looking for the Honda S2000 of turntables

This turned out much longer than I anticipated, so I understand if you folks skip right over this post. For the rest of you, here we go.

I've been reading a lot about turntables for quite some time now. I have learned about matching tonearms and cartridges, resonant frequencies, compliance, azimuth, null points. And still I have difficulty choosing a model. Part of this is simply the number of choices available and the amount of disagreement between posters to forums such as this. But I think the biggest part of this is that one man's trash is another's treasure. People want different things from their turntables.

Look, there are folks out there, and you may be one of them, who are willing to devote time to tweaking and comparing and upgrading to squeeze every last bit of performance out of your systems. This is not a knock; it is clear you are passionate about your hobby and I am happy to see people get so much joy from their music. I wish I had the money, time and ears to conduct such experiments myself, but that's not me and it's not what I am looking for.

Here's what I am looking for in order of importance:

1. Tracking ability. I've read reviews to the tune of "this cartridge is amazing! Such detail, so dynamic! It doesn't track very well, but the slam!" Huh? If it doesn't track well, I don't give a fish how great it sounds. I've heard inner groove distortion and I want to minimize it as much as possible. Now, from what I've read, I should get a high-compliance cartridge because they track best, which means I should be looking for a low-mass tonearm. Except that manufacturers don't list the tonearm mass on their websites (I haven't found any, unless only the ones out of my price range do so) and the online tonearm database only lists mass for a few models, and of those I can afford, none of them are low-mass. Are there no affordable low-mass arms?

2. No fuss. I've read the arguments about VTA, and frankly I don't know what to believe. Some of you guys change it for every record, others never touch it. I want to think about my turntable as much as I think about my refrigerator; I want to open the door and the drinks to be cold. I want to play a record and hear music. If it's really a simple adjustment and makes an obvious difference, I'd consider it, but it's hard to know which of these suggestions are based in reality and which are just black magic.

3. Make my music sound good. I know, duh, right? What I mean is, I want MY music to sound good. I listen to R&B, Soul, and Rock through the 1970s. Up-tempo punchy music. I suspect a lot of these super expensive rigs are necessary to reveal the subtleties of symphonic works. Again, good on ya, I'm happy for classical fans, but I will never ever put a classic record on my platter, so those requirements go out the window. Think Little Richard, Sam Cooke, Beatles, James Brown, Led Zeppelin, Louis Jordan, Hendrix, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Ramones, Talking Heads, that sort of thing.

3.5 On the subject of revealing detail in recordings, not all my records are in pristine condition and I'm afraid too revealing a system may bring out surface noise to a level I'm not happy with. I've read reviews that label certain cartridges as "forgiving" Is this what they're referring to? Is this something I should consider when choosing hardware?

4. Price. I have $2000 to spend on a turntable, cartridge and phonostage. When I say I have $2000 to spend, it means I have $2000 to spend, not "Well, you can get this now, and then upgrade this and this." No, I have two grand and that's that. That is way more than I spent on my last table (MMF 2.1), so whatever I get will be a big improvement. And I don't WANT to upgrade. I want it to work great now and enjoy it with no eye to the future.

Some of you may be thinking, "Buddy, you should just stick to CDs; this hobby isn't for you." First off, while no CD-hater, I have heard the difference between vinyl and CD and it is appreciable. Vinyl playback can sound alive in a way I have never heard from its digital counterpart. Also, I already have a few hundred records just waiting to be played again.

The best analogy I could think of regarding my quest for a new turntable is cars. There are sportscars out there like Ferraris, Maseratis, etc. that are magnificent machines capable of unparalleled performance and fun. They are also, incredibly expensive and fussy. These babies need to be coddled and primped and maintained not just to run well, but to just plain run! Then, there's the S2000 which is an amazing car in its own right, nimble, attractive and best of all, it's a Honda, which means the thing just works. No constant tweaking and fussing over. Turn the key and off you go. Sure, it's no Lotus, but it's no Civic either.

There we are. Thank you if you've made it this far. I really do respect the collective knowledge of the members of this board and will appreciate any advice that may come my way.
shrevie
shrevie OP
2 posts
 
Thanks again for all the advice.

I already have simple record-cleaning gear, so that does not need to be factored into my budget. Now, some back story:

Here's what led me to this point. Long ago, I bought a MMF 2.1 to hook up to a mass-market system just to hear records. Then I shelved the TT when I got more into CDs. Much later, I replaced my amp and speakers and am now looking to upgrade the TT to something commensurate with the rest of my system (Vincent SV-236; Synchrony Two towers).

I haven't heard a lot of TTs, but I have heard a Nottingham which opened my eyes to what a TT could sound like. It felt more like being enveloped by music and less like being aware of listening to a reproduction of it. I know, it's a $3k machine and I'm not expecting to get that kind of sound on my budget. The point is, I know I can do better than what I have and now I have the amp/speakers to accommodate a better TT.

When I listened to the P3, it was not as big an improvement as I expected, especially after such positive press. It sounded cleaner than the 2.1 (by cleaner I mean...less mechanical? I'm not sure how to describe it). But, as I mentioned, it sounded grainy, but I'm guessing that's because of the cartridge (Do 10X5s normally sound grainy?). The lesson here is that it wasn't enough of an improvement over what I have to justify the cost. I'm not much of a measurements guy and try not to be too analytical about these things. I figured that I would walk into the listening room and immediately hear the difference in quality. I didn't. So I figured the next step would be a higher level Music Hall or Pro-ject or an entry-level Clearaudio, which are within my budget. I haven't had a chance to listen to any of these, and don't know if I will.

To those who are familiar with a 2.1 (or decks of similar level: Rega P1, Pro-ject Debut), here is my question: Which model TTs (aside from Technics, PLEASE) would you consider enough of a step up from entry-level to justify the cost?

Regarding Technics, I honestly had no idea there was a war raging between Technics/Anti-Technics camps. My research on TTs has been limited to hi-fi magazines, online analog articles and whatever gear I can audition. I knew 1200s were still being made, but didn't give them much consideration due to their being marketed toward DJs, never being mentioned in any of the main mags (Stereophile, TAS, etc.) and the bad things dealers and writers have to say about direct-drive. To a man I was told belt drive is the way to go. I find the reaction by the poster who was shocked that I had heard such things about DD pretty disingenuous. Do we not read the same magazines? Have you ever seen Technics listed as a recommended component, best buy, etc.? I haven't.

Now, I'm not saying I have dismissed a 1200 or a DD table. But I don't want to stoke the flame war going on in this thread. I have read the pro-Technics posts. You've made good points. It is under consideration. Now I'd like to hear about the many other models available.

To Macrojack, you did not misread me as your synopsis of my wants is exactly on the mark, much better than I could have worded it. Thank you for the advice. As I said, Technics is under consideration.

To Bondmanp, thank you for the link to the Music Direct Marantz bundle. This looks to be right up my alley and at exactly my price. I read that this model is a Clearaudio Emotion rebranded for Marantz. I've read good things about Clearaudio. Any comments?

I wouldn't indulge you all with more questions had this thread not proved to be so popular and you hadn't all been so very helpful. Thank you again.
onhwy61's avatar
onhwy61
5,234 posts
 
Shrevie, save up for something in the $3k to $4k range. My experience is that I wasted more money in mid-range upgrades then I actually spent in getting better quality components. $2k is not enough money to get a significant upgrade over what you have. You can get something nice for that money, but not something really good. In essence it's money not that well spent. But for $3,500+ you can get something special. Roughly budget equal amounts for a turntable/tonearm and phone stage. Don't overspend on a cartridge.

This may not be what you want to hear, but either keep what you got now, or save up for later. It's far and away the best bang for the buck.
hesson11
237 posts
 
I have no personal experience with it, but if I were in your position, I'd try to check out a Michell Tecnodec (googling will turn up lots of results). I've seen one in person, and it has a very high cool factor, based only on appearances. But it also got a very good review from Michael Fremer in Stereophile. He said that if your budget is $4,000, you'd do very well to get the $1,700 Tecnodec plus a $2,000 cartridge because the Tecnodec was good enough to show off an expensive cart to good effect. It's also very simple and straightforward to set up. It usually comes with a Michell-modified Rega arm that has easy VTA adjustment.

One other I'd check out is the Opera Consonance LP6.1 at an even lower $1,125, I believe (again google will take you there). Available from Grant Fidelity, with, I believe, return privileges.

Again, this is not a firsthand recommendation, just a couple of tables I'd try to learn more about if I were in your position.

(By the way, I was always skeptical of the Technics turntableĀ—until I bought one with mods from KAB. It's easily on a par with my Oracle Paris, and I think it's an outstanding choice in that price range. So I guess I'm one of Lizzie's fanboys, which apparently includes anyone who happens to like the deck.)

-Bob
macrojack
1,303 posts
 
Belt drive is simple. It requires no great engineering department. Most of the stuff you are considering evolved from DIY. That's not a bad thing but it is eclipsed by the engineering departments and research budgets of a major corporation like Technics. During the late 1970s and early 1980s when I was selling retail audio, every household in America was shopping for a stereo and most included the purchase of a turntable. It was a booming industry and the Japanese companies were leading the way. In turntables, there were statement products from every manufacturer and there were entry level, price conscious compromised offerings. Cheap direct drive wasn't very good and failed to compete successfully with entry level belt drive. The ultimate efforts of these companies were invariably direct drive. This is still true. However, the best turntables of that period are as good as the best made today. The R&D that went into these statement products was subsidized by the sale of hundreds of thousands of mass market units. As I'm sure you know, that subsidy no longer exists. Most big manufacturers all but abandoned turntable production during the 1980s and most have not returned to it. Technics is an exception as they continued to market their units to a professional element without interruption despite having cut back to just one model.
Perhaps the reason you don't see much talk of Technics among reviewers and their echo system is that a company like that has no need and little reason to bother with that political charade. They do plenty well on their own having a very well-established name and a vast advertising budget.
I'm recommending the Technics 12xx series because it is what you asked for with your car analogy. My own turntable, a Technics SL-150 MK II with Rega RB 300 arm is a default option. I just sold my Technics SL-1000 MkII to a prominent high end amplifier manufacturer because I felt that there was little justification for holding on to such a machine when we play LPs so seldom at my house. Nonetheless, I am not ready to abandon the option altogether so I mated an arm and table I already owned and will press them into service one day soon.
So buy whatever you see fit to purchase. Obviously I have no stake in this matter. What brought me to offer my advice was the wrong belief on your part that belt-drive is inherently superior to direct drive. That simply isn't the case. If I were in your position, I would be looking for a lightly used masterpiece from the golden age of analog. Since you specified a desire to buy "new", I pointed you toward the Technics. It isn't the last word but it is the best value barring an informed selection from the past. I have bought many excellent tables with dedicated tonearm for less than $1000 over the years and you can do that too. If you wish for more advice from me or have specific questions, please feel free to contact me personally.
audiofeil
4,011 posts
 
Over a year ago I took a Technics SP-25 and matching base in on trade. It sat in my store room for months until a bit of ambition struck and I decided to mount a Hadcock tonearm on it just for grins and giggles.

I know the Hadcock well but had no idea on what to expect from the SP-25. I am simply amazed at the performance of the combination. The only modification is a TTWeights copper mat replacing the cheesy Technics stock rubber mat.

My total investment is a bit over $1000. Having heard most of the current models I'm confident there is no VPI, Music Hall, or Rega table/arm combo up to $3K that will come close to this set up IMO.

Go for a Technics or similiar 70's table.

Dealer disclaimer for Hadcock.
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