What MC for $1,000-$2,000?

Rower,
Let me know if you want to sell your Ac-2. Bob

I all ready had added mass with the 103R (black top plate on the tonearm head). It didn't even touch the sound quality issue I hear with it. Yes, the bass got tighter, ut the mids on up are just not what the Quatros are capable of.

There are no super "serious" issues with my set-up, except the 103r cartridge seems much less "open" sounding in general than the AC-2. I don't think that the equipment will allow even a 100% exact set-up on a 103r to match the AC2 in midrange detail.

But the reviews are 30:1 that says the 103r is a great deal on most speakers, so I took a gamble that I could fake it till I make it on the set-up. No, not 100% extraction of performance, but 80% or so. Nope, didn't do it. Some is imdeed the 103r, and some is indeed my tonearm.

I've mixeda and matched equipment for 30 years, and I've never seen a so-so product eclipse a better one unless the match was simply so gross as to not be worth doing. The 103R with a 25G weight, large paddle, max mass in the counter balancer, and 2.2 grams tracking force isnt miles away from where the 104r needs to be. Exact, no. Terrible, no. My problem was how good the AC-2 is, and I never knew it. My bad.

The compliance measurement is interesting as it doesn't seem to be very linear with frequency or how would you get..."It's more like 15 for the AC2 vs. 9 for the 103R. The 103D works out to 21.6 on an apples to apples basis." I'm sure you meabt 1.66 or so, right? or is it that gossly non lineaer? Something is amiss?

Any way you slice it, the AC-2 is still really good sounding on a SME type III at 2.0 grams. The stylus rack angle (what people thing VTA is,usually around 16-20 degrees, but it isn't) is set to 92 degrees, or close to it "playing" it by ear.

But, I do agree that the 103r is out for all the reasons I "hear" and you "measure". So, I took what everyone said, and went where no one said to go;

Soundsmith The Voice Ebony Phono Cartridge
$2,199.00
Compliance: - Select - High Medium
Loading: - Select - 100pf 400pf
$2,199.00$2,199.00 Soundsmith Aida Phono

This cartridge is smack in the sweet spot for my SME series III tonearm, and price range. Has anyone used this cartridge, and subjectively what was the general sound? Forward, bright, soft, ETC? The two reviews I've read are fovarable. Renmember, I looked at MC designs because the MM amd MI designs were sort of left behind a little more than MC for various reasons, mostly emotional)and some mechanical.

I bough the Quatros for the same reason I tried the 103r, sounding good isn't always throwing money at the problem. A decent design doesn't have to cost a lot. And, a MC isn't always better than a good MM or MI design. The soundsmith seems to be a well done moving iron design that falls right into the best my tonearm can offer. I think, on paper, you all would agree with this decision so far? So you all nudged me in the right direction, but I never really heard what product was in that direction. Still haven't.

So, I was hoping that a voice would have enunciated that this somewhatt rare cartridge exists. I admit, I never heard of it till a friend suggested a GRADO on steroids! It is essentially a GRADO type design basis, and one that seems historically good.

Is the ebony that much better than the AIDA?

Best, to all that have chimed in.

Rower,

You didn't add enough mass using one of those headshell plates, to put the 103R in its operating range. In fact you wouldn't want to add at the headshell all the mass necessary to load your light tonearm to the effective mass needed for that cartridge.

>>But the reviews are 30:1 that says the 103r is a great deal on most speakers, so I took a gamble that I could fake it till I make it on the set-up. No, not 100% extraction of performance, but 80% or so. Nope, didn't do it. Some is imdeed the 103r, and some is indeed my tonearm.<<

The 103R *is* a great cartridge, period. It's not the only great cartridge, but it's one, and that's apparent on any at least reasonably good speaker. You can't fake its setup, however. Your tonearm is so mismatched to the 103R that you can't get 80% or 60% or even 40% sonic performance the 103R is capable of. The pairing doesn't work for either instrument, regardless of loudspeakers you listen to.

>>The 103R with a 25G weight, large paddle, max mass in the counter balancer, and 2.2 grams tracking force isnt miles away from where the 104r needs to be.<<

This is a misunderstanding of the issues. It *is* miles away. Your SME III has an effective mass of just 5 grams. A Denon 103R just begins to sound good in a 12 grams eff mass Rega tonearm, where even there additional mass at the headshell improves the sound. The 103R is commonly used in tonearms having effective mass in the range of 20 - 25 grams. Your arm isn't even close. The Zu103 modification of the 103 adds 5.5g of mass to the 103/103R total mass, reaching 14g. If you add a gram's worth of bolts, putting THAT 15g block in your tonearm will still leave the combination in borderline operating range. In the SME III, the 103R *will* absolutely sound dull, undynamic and have funky bass.

>>The compliance measurement is interesting as it doesn't seem to be very linear with frequency or how would you get..."It's more like 15 for the AC2 vs. 9 for the 103R. The 103D works out to 21.6 on an apples to apples basis." I'm sure you meabt 1.66 or so, right? or is it that gossly non lineaer? Something is amiss?<<

No, I didn't mean "1.66." The 103/103R have compliance rating of 5 x10-6cm/Dyne at 100 Hz. The AC-2 has a compliance rating of 15 x10-6cm/Dyne at 10 Hz. To reconcile Denon's non-standard 100 Hz rating with Accuphase's standard 10 Hz rating, multiply the Denon spec by 1.8. The 103R normalized compliance spec becomes 9 x10-6cm/Dyne. The higher compliance 103D is normalized to 21.6 x10-6cm/Dyne, which is why you liked the D but not the R.

I have no idea what you mean by "...doesn't seem very linear by frequency..." Again, you have a tonearm with effective mass of just 5 grams. The AC-2 is serviceable but borderline with it. The 103R is wholly mismatched. You haven't listened to an AC-2 vs. 103R comparison. You've listened to a semi-optimal-but-serviceable AC-2/SMEIII pairing compared to a completely non-optimal 103R/SMEIII combination that puts the 103R outside its operating range. I'm only using data to explain sonic results that would have been entirely predictable. None of us in this thread would even suggest you can get good sound out of a 103R with *any* 5 grams effective mass tonearm. This isn't a quality issue about either component. It's a matching issue. That a 103D sounded good in your tonearm is irrelevent to whether a lower compliance 103R will work.

>>So, I took what everyone said, and went where no one said to go;

Soundsmith The Voice Ebony Phono Cartridge
$2,199.00
Compliance: - Select - High Medium
Loading: - Select - 100pf 400pf
$2,199.00$2,199.00 Soundsmith Aida Phono<<

You may or may not like the Soundsmith, but at least you'll be giving it a fair shot by choosing the high compliance option for good matching to your tonearm. Some of us in this thread think you can do much better by not being constrained by your low mass tonearm and its various design compromises that probably seemed like good ideas at the time to SME.

Personally, I would not spend $2,200 on a cartridge for your front-end. Especially not when you can spend just roughly $500 on the excellent Denon DL304 or $1000 on the Denon DLS1, both of which have a normalized compliance rating of about 25 x10-6cm/Dyne, which will work fine in your 5 grams effective mass tonearm.

All that said, the AC-2 is a fine cartridge. I owned both AC-1 and AC-2 back in the 1980s, alongside the Denon 103D. I preferred the 103D overall but the AC cartridges were better in some respects. If you love the AC-2 and are committed to your SME III, send the Accuphase to Soundsmith for a rehab and be happy.

Phil

Constraint is relative. To go with a heavy arm just puts the constraints somewhere else, and my wallet, too, as I'd have to buy two components verses one.

I listened to a well broken-in 103R on a heavy arm, and it was better, but it still had a more opaque midrange sound like music was coming off a flat plate. Highes were noticably not as open, either. I stuck my so-so AC-2 set-up T.table in and the world opened up again. I'm sorry guys, but the 103r is OK, but not much better than the price in my listening. I have no beef with DENON, but the AC-2 is still WAY better sounding even in my tone arm. Sure, it cost more. But we're talking SOUND right now. I can do much better, even with my tone arm, than the 103r...or even my AC-2. I would not settle for the 103R even with a heavier arm!

The DENON is quiet (conical stylus tracks way less of the record surface), however. And the bass was always nice. It just lacks clarity and dynamics in the midrange and open extension on top.

I liked my old 103D mostly because it was running DQ-10's and it's been years since I listened to one. What I do know, is that the AC-2 kicked it out of bed A to B compared on that same system and arm, which is WHY I have the AC-2 today. I was hoping that the "improved" 103r would narrow the gap. I think with what I have heard now, I'd say that the stock 103r is WORSE than a stock 103D. The Quatros are much less forgiving than the DQ-10, too.

"Keep in mind that Denon publishes their dynamic compliance specs relative to 100Hz. The actual compliance at 10Hz would be considerable higher than the spec at 100Hz. Its this little discrepancy that explains why the 103 and 103R perform better than expected in lower mass arms. The actual compliance at 10Hz is something more like 10-11 X 10-6 cm/Dyne for the 103/103R from; http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/47/473022.html

My old lit for my 103D shows 12x10-6 cm/Dyne on the 103D @ 100Hz so taking your 1.8 times that is ineed about 21.6 cm / Dyne compared to my Accupase at 15 x 10-6 cm/Dyne. Also, to get 103R's working, most get the conical stylus replaced, too. Even Soundsmith reworks the 103r's stylus and suspension. I sure do not hear, or agree with the statement that the 103r, "perform better than expected" on low mass arms..I think you can agree with that.

So much for the 103D or 103r, I'm wanting better than that, it is out there, and the AC-2 says so even at 15 x 10-6 cm/ Dyne on my arm. THAT I hear everyday.

So I have yet to hear a PEEP about what to do other than fan boy the 103r or make it work. I don't WANT to "make" the 103r work. I've hear it (I have one to sell). If you think that's the end all to your knowledge, fine. I already know that there is better out there if my AC-2 is strutting it stuff like it is. I want to hear about THOSE options!

I am a long time AC2 owner, and understand your objection. The 103r is a good cartridge, needs alot of break-in on the suspension, needs a heavy arm, but brother - it will not sound like the AC2, which sounds alive in comparison.

Looking at the Nakatsuka design family, it starts with your ac2, then onto Monster alpha's, and then the present day Zyx's. Happy hunting.